TargetTalk

"I prefer -
1. 1911-style ergonomics,
2. A red-dot sight (most likely an H1),
3. A "roll" trigger, and
4. Reasonable availability, i.e. I can pay money now and get the pistol within a month. "


The biggest problem is your desired timeline. You probably should also realize that with triggers, whether roll or crisp, it is the quality that counts.

Pick a notable pistol smith that can produce a quality lower and fit your Marvel or Nighthawk upper. And it is going to take the time it takes.

jackh wrote:...it is going to take the time it takes.

This fact has become crystal clear. I honestly figured that someone, somewhere would make something along these lines as a regular production piece. I appear to have been quite wrong in that assumption.

BenEnglishTX wrote:

jackh wrote:...it is going to take the time it takes.

This fact has become crystal clear. I honestly figured that someone, somewhere would make something along these lines as a regular production piece. I appear to have been quite wrong in that assumption.

One of the big problems Ben, is that everyone wants something different. There are so many options on Bullseye guns, that your chances of getting exactly what you want without a custom smith are small.
i want to suggest a different plan. Buy something used, either a Les Baer, Rock River, or other custom gun, pull the slide off, and put a stock Marvel unit on it, and then get a trigger job, if you need one. Meanwhile, start the process of ordering a custom gun.

Lets play a cost no option scenario. I dont know where u guys shoot, but by me unless your willing to travel almost 2 hours or more, there are not alot of 50yd slow fire 2700's around. I've seen and shot Marvel conversions and they have excellent accuracy. In a 900 or 1800 25yd slow match or unless your an excellent master shooter (using a .45 of course), not much can go wrong with a .32, then a .38spec gun. I've seen crazy scores from good expert shooters, then come down to earth with the .45. But, if your not Brian Zins and you only shoot 1800's, why hamper yourself with the .45.??? Its about winning your class not being a tough guy.

Or just shoot a Ruger in the meantime. For a long time I did not like the Ruger's "bent" grip. I made all sorts of excuses. Then I really tried them. And like them. But I do prefer a certain combination of MkII grip panels. Thin plastic on the right and laminated thumbrest wood on the left. I do not subscribe to the notion that all your grips being the same is necessary.

Yes, eventually the 1911/MP/AA/NH will be your main 22 gun. The Ruger, the backup.

tenx9 wrote:Lets play a cost no option scenario. I dont know where u guys shoot, but by me unless your willing to travel almost 2 hours or more, there are not alot of 50yd slow fire 2700's around. I've seen and shot Marvel conversions and they have excellent accuracy. In a 900 or 1800 25yd slow match or unless your an excellent master shooter (using a .45 of course), not much can go wrong with a .32, then a .38spec gun. I've seen crazy scores from good expert shooters, then come down to earth with the .45. But, if your not Brian Zins and you only shoot 1800's, why hamper yourself with the .45.??? Its about winning your class not being a tough guy.

You can get a high master card if you shoot a 22 good enough, but does that make you a true high master? Not even close, if all you aspire to do is win gallery matches then just shoot the easy guns and revel in your accomplishments.

GunRunner wrote:You can get a high master card if you shoot a 22 good enough, but does that make you a true high master? Not even close, if all you aspire to do is win gallery matches then just shoot the easy guns and revel in your accomplishments.

I don't know what a "high master" is. And while this may change, at the moment I simply don't care.

I just know that I like punching holes in paper, I like the group of guys who gather monthly to do the same thing, and I wish my holes in the paper were closer together. I figure a pistol better adapted to the game will help.

If that's an "easy gun", it simply doesn't matter to me.

We've gone rather far afield here. I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I'm in the process of getting a custom gun. Kate, you're absolutely right; the option combinations are endless. I've accepted that I'll actually get the pistol in hand whenever it finally shows up; I have plenty of others with which to practice in the meantime.

I understand where your coming from. I was once there myself. I've come to realize that I'll never shoot 855's with the .45 no matter how many matches and how many practice hours I spend at it. Some have it, some don't. In centerfire, I'd rather shoot an 830 with a .38 than 810 with .45. When it all comes down to it, its math, its about having fun, and taking a few indiv matches. Mr. Zinns doesn't have to worry about me, lol
Plus .38's are alot cheaper to shoot, since no one is stepping up and giving my free ammo. Good luck to all you guys and gals on here.

tenx9 wrote:Plus .38's are alot cheaper to shoot, since no one is stepping up and giving my free ammo.

When is comes to free .38s, I guess I got lucky. An uncle bequeathed me cases of this stuff. It's old but it still shoots great.

Completely agree with the previous responses.





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Ben English,

Are you absolutely sure you want a roll trigger. I know everyone talks about them now but I am not so sure they aren't a fad or a phase that shooters go through every few years because in the 60's everyone was going from a roll to crisp until everyone had to have a trigger that "broke like glass". For me personally I think a roll trigger might be just a bit easier in timed and rapid but much worse for slow fire. Make sure what you want before you have it done.-- Bill --

oldcaster wrote:Ben English,

Are you absolutely sure you want a roll trigger. I know everyone talks about them now but I am not so sure they aren't a fad or a phase that shooters go through every few years because in the 60's everyone was going from a roll to crisp until everyone had to have a trigger that "broke like glass". For me personally I think a roll trigger might be just a bit easier in timed and rapid but much worse for slow fire. Make sure what you want before you have it done.-- Bill --

Just my opinion, but I believe a roll trigger exposes triggering errors that can be almost undetectable with a light crisp trigger. Once you learn good triggering, you should be able to shoot either well. A heavy roll is a bit harder to "jerk" than a crisp trigger, but a roll is also easier to flinch with. The flinch happens when you move your wrist, usually after momentarily stopping your trigger pull.
Mentally it is a bit harder to change from crisp to a roll, than to go the other way, but eventually, your triggering should be so automatic, that the trigger doesn't matter much.

The 22's we used in the AMU in 1965 were Highstandards I think 102. I can't remember for sure which number but they had the sights on the slide and what would now be called a long roll trigger and was at that time called a trigger with a lot of creep. At that time, everybody was talking about the new pistol that was going to set the bullseye world on fire and that was the Ruger because someone shot a very high score with it. I bought an R1 bull barrel as soon as I came home and never did like it.

Isabel, I think you are right about some trigger mistakes being exagerated with a roll trigger. My problem now is heeling in slow fire if I use a roll trigger which is not something I used to do. It would be very rare for me to jerk the trigger. I think that when the trigger moves just slightly, anticipation makes you go the rest of the way unconciously. When shooting the short line I am making a conscious effort to squeeze the trigger rather than letting the gun go off by itself and that effectively stops the heeling mistakes . I also think that when a person gets older and doesn't have a very good grip any longer, milking the gun becomes common and it is very difficult to keep a tight grip all the time. -- Bill --

oldcaster wrote:The 22's we used in the AMU in 1965 were Highstandards I think 102. I can't remember for sure which number but they had the sights on the slide and what would now be called a long roll trigger and was at that time called a trigger with a lot of creep. At that time, everybody was talking about the new pistol that was going to set the bullseye world on fire and that was the Ruger because someone shot a very high score with it. I bought an R1 bull barrel as soon as I came home and never did like it.

Isabel, I think you are right about some trigger mistakes being exagerated with a roll trigger. My problem now is heeling in slow fire if I use a roll trigger which is not something I used to do. It would be very rare for me to jerk the trigger. I think that when the trigger moves just slightly, anticipation makes you go the rest of the way unconciously. When shooting the short line I am making a conscious effort to squeeze the trigger rather than letting the gun go off by itself and that effectively stops the heeling mistakes . I also think that when a person gets older and doesn't have a very good grip any longer, milking the gun becomes common and it is very difficult to keep a tight grip all the time. -- Bill --

I like your analysis Bill. One of the reasons that the roll trigger works well for sustained fire, is that being agressive with it, stops those problems you mentioned. If you can force yourself to be just as agressive in slow fire, you can overcome the heeling, and the flinching. If you can't, you need to shoot a crisp trigger.

You can have a pretty loose grip, and still get excellent results in sustained fire, if you keep your arm and wrist stiff. and resist the almost overwhelming urge to tighten your grip in response to seeing the dot move.

oldcaster wrote:Are you absolutely sure you want a roll trigger<?>

I'm not absolutely sure of anything in life. Seriously, the more I know, the more I know that I don't know anything.

However, in the specific case of roll triggers I've received competent coaching on the subject, tested pistols with both crisp and roll triggers, taken into account as many factors as possible given my limited experience, and reached a reasonable decision that this is the way I want my first custom BE pistol built. It's already in progress. If it turns out to be a horrible mistake, it won't be the first in my life.

Isabel1130 wrote:I like your analysis Bill. One of the reasons that the roll trigger works well for sustained fire, is that being agressive with it, stops those problems you mentioned. If you can force yourself to be just as agressive in slow fire, you can overcome...

My natural tendency is to shoot rather quickly, more or less trying (usually failing, but trying) to establish a shooting rhythm where the gun goes bang about when the sights initially settle into alignment. If that's "aggressive" and if that definition of aggressive is conducive to better outcomes with roll triggers, then I think I've made the right choice. Time and experience will tell.

I wouldn't worry about it too much because the difference is minimal and I think you will be fine. When shooting Bullseye your scores after a while level off to an average and then you go through ups and downs which starts to make you wonder all kinds of ifs. A roll trigger compared to a crisp trigger is one of them and another is grip angle or grip types. At this stage also, a person is looking for just a few more points and they always wonder if another small thing they can do will make a difference and the differences are real personal. You will get there before you know it.

When I shot in the military years ago, we shot 6 days a week with the best coaches there were plus I was 22 years old and the incentive was great because the assignment at least in my mind was the best there was. All the new shooters shot masters scores with 22 in very short order or it was back to your other duty.

First let me say, that we all appreciate the service you gave to your country. That being said, you can't compare 1. Free gun 2. free ammo 3.best instructors in the world and 4. 22 yrs old, with someone making it on their own, with no formal training and no and/or getting equipment. Thats light years difference. Roll triggers seem nice but are difficult to shoot if you don't follow thru properly. Crisp break like glass triggers are difficult as well because you need a real good hold. The best I've shot are 2stage triggers that can be set up where you get a nice long 1st stage then a definate stop you can lean on, then a crisp break. The only one that i shot was a Hammerli 215s. Superb trigger. I'm shooting a walther gsp now. and i find it hard to get use to. Sorry to say I sold the Hammerli a while back. Big mistake. For the .45 you can play with the 3 leaf spring for a longer first stage (not really it seems that way) then the trigger break

tenx9, When I was 22 and just out of college, I would have much prefered to buy my own gun, ammo, and instruction and stayed home. The two year difference in salary would have bought me any kind of stuff I wanted along with any coaching I would have desired for years. That along with having things thrown at me and spit at when I came home didn't make it a great experience and for some it was way worse.

My post was meant for Ben to feel like he can aspire to be as good a Bullseye shooter he desires to be and it can happen fast to the right person. Less than a year ago we had a guy come to our Bullseye group who is 65 years old and never shot pistols with one hand before. We shoot a practice match every week outdoors of 20 rounds slow, 20 timed, and 20 rapid of 22 and centerfire plus a hardball match at the end. His first scores with 22 (with 2 hands) were about 430 or so. Recently he has broken into(one handed) the low 560's with his 22 and middle 550's with his 45. A year ago he had not even seen someone reload ammo and was basically a person who played golf all the time. Now he does it all and I call that success and fast. Initially he couldn't imagine someone shooting anywhere near that well with one hand on a pistol and now it is him doing it. Incidently he was in the tet offensive and would rather have been home also. -- Bill --

Believe me, my post was not written to underscore or demean anyones ackomlishments. If any, I applaud them. I too have seen fast improvements with beginning shooters of various ages. However, I also known and know lifelong marksmen. Not because they dont try or practice, but brcause some have it and some dont. You reach a certain level and you become frozen. Some freeze at expert, some low master and some unfortunatly marksman. If it was that easy to achieve master scores the rolls would be full of them. But, thats not the case. Even in big state championships u get a handful of masters, a huge expert and marksman fields, and some sharpshooters. The point of my post was to bring out to newer shooters to buy the best they can afford, because if your not disposed to be real good, good equipment might help you gain a few points to get you to the next level.