TargetTalk

TexasShooter wrote:So let me get this right. It is good and highly encouraged to compete in animal shows where the winners get tens of thousands of dollars (or more) with steers raised in air conditioned stalls. But it is bad for the same kid to compete in an event where their result is based entirely on the work they did themselves, as opposed to having lots of help from mom and dad (and the hired hand).

Obviously I am just not clear on the concept.

In some states, in some districts, in some counties.

Not in all, and I'd say that the majority are fine with competition ... but there are "some" .......

Here in NM the state, district and counties are cool and encourage competition.
At our state match even nice buckles are given away ... not just to winning individuals, but to winning teams as well.

TexasShooter wrote:

randy1952 wrote:..the word "competition" was forbidden..

So let me get this right. It is good and highly encouraged to compete in animal shows where the winners get tens of thousands of dollars (or more) with steers raised in air conditioned stalls. But it is bad for the same kid to compete in an event where their result is based entirely on the work they did themselves, as opposed to having lots of help from mom and dad (and the hired hand).

Obviously I am just not clear on the concept.

The ag agent agreed with me, but when an organization decides to be politically correct common sense or logical thinking rarely enters into those decisions.

Someone please tell me again what the value of 4H is again to Shooting Sports Programs? Why do we jump thru these crazy hoops?

1. They (4H National Level Leadership) don't attend the 3P Air Gun Council meetings (ever!) to have input or know what's going on in the real Shooting Sports world.

2. The "give everyone a ribbon" crap, is evil and teaches bad lessons to good kids, that we have to "un teach" later.

3. Most (Georgia aside) 4H competitions / matches are of very poor quality.

4. I don't know about you, but we don't get any funding from 4H.

5. The ridiculous, redundant, poor excuse for Coaches training / certification has run off more of our volunteers than it's ever been of value.

6. Maybe Texas should be looking to use something on the lines of Orion for state level competitions and they wouldn't have such a need to train a large scoring staff.

Feel free to add your list...

Someone please convince me why we should keep putting up with these barriers to progress!

Off Rant now...

GCSInc wrote:Someone please convince me why we should keep putting up with these barriers to progress!

A chance to work with these kids.

There are days that I get really frustrated with the extension office, the state office, some of the parents ... but working with the kids always seems to boost my own morale.

What value does 4-H bring to the shooting sports? I can understand the flip side question as I coach in both 4-H and USA Shooting. However, IMHO that is the short sighted question. Competitive shooting sports is not an actively growing sporting event with youth. 4-H widens the base in which potential youth will become interested in shooting sports. That is why USA shooting pursued the Shooting Passport initiative with 4-H. 4-H provides the stepping stone.

I enjoy working with the 4-H kids, and in the western half of Colorado competitive shooting (10M air, smallbore) is non existent. The youth all hunt, so they are familiar with firearms, and they compete in 4-H because it is akin to their lifestyle as raising livestock is. Working with those youth is encouraging, but I come across kids that never knew shooting sports existed, and want to learn more. As a USA Shooting coach I can help them expand beyond the 4-H limitations and introduce them to the next level. I dont get alot of kids, but I get some, and some being introduced to the world of shooting sports is better than none.

As we talked about the importance of 4-H at the coaches college last fall, it can provide shooting sports a funnel program to grow the base. As a shooting sports leader it drives me crazy that Colorado 4-H doesnt follow any rules of any groups, NRA, CMP or ISSF or even follow the rules of National 4-H. But there are similarities and so 4-H provides the fundamentals that can be built upon.

Or something like that? This year I'm proud that I have 3 4-H kids competing at the Colorado JOSC, and with each success, interest in shooting becomes more infectious with the other youth in the 4-H community.

CO Belties / Joel / Randy
I couldn't agree with you more about working with kids. That's why we put up with all the madness!

However;

I contend that if you have a shooting sports program that can stand on it's own, 4H needs you a heck of a lot more than you need 4H. 4H is a Volunteer lead program. You're doing most or all of the work now!

I understand that 4H is an entry point, but I'd say that if you use a little Public Relations, Marketing, and advertising, you'd get about the same number of kids coming to join your club.

With NRA Junior Shooting Sports Programs (Air Gun and Smallbore), CMP Junior Air Gun Programs, Scouts, Daisy BB Gun, etc... I see a steady stream of kids looking to expand their horizons.

There was a day when 4H was the ticket to advertising for shooting sports programs in the schools. I believe we may be past that now...

I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I'm not going to change a successful shooting sports program to comply with a bunch of mess for Political Correctness and to weaken our program.

We'll continue to follow the 4H Certification standards and we require additional training under NRA / USA Shooting / CMP, for Level 1,2 and 3 Coaches Certification, but we all know that the 4H training is simply checking a block, and it's next to worthless in it's true value of material taught.

Georgia Competitive Shooters Inc.,
The Ole Mill Range Complex, a USA Shooting Certified Training Center
www.OleMillRangeCTC.com

There are nearly 1000 people who have viewed this thread. I guess there are lots of folks who are concerned, but don't really want to have their opinions heard...

Bottom Line, 4H National Leadership needs to get involved with real shooting sports programs, and the States need to follow the rules, or more Clubs will start moving away from the Clover...

Roy ... you know I agree with you.

However, for me 4-H is an "umbrella" which provides the program I run with handy items ... insurance, ready access to a 501(c)(3) determination, and most of all, yearly "crops" of kids that may be interested in competitive shooting.
This may sound cynical, but it's all I can give to an organization that can't be bothered to show up to the 3-P air National Council meeting (of which 4-H is a member) ... they have 6 (now 8?) members on the 4-H SS council AND NOT ONE can attend a one day meeting?????

If we have absolutely nothing else going in a year, 4-H nationals is an option.
Otherwise our State match is probably more fun (and much less expensive) than Nationals.

I'd rather take our kids to CMP 3-P JOs, Winter Airgun, Spring Airgun, Rocky Mountain Championships or USAS Nationals.

I don't expect 4-H do do anything other than they have been ... just plod along and have folks roll their eyes when they hear one of your kids is a 4-H shooter. There will be programs that work and harvest that yearly crop of new kids, but don't expect 4-H to step in an lend a hand ... you'll be doing it with your and your other volunteer project leaders sweat.

Hey guys, I have lived both sides of this discussion!

On the pro side for 4-H, my daughter would probably have never gotten involved in competitive shooting were it not for a local 4-H program. She is now very serious about air rifle and small bore and also is doing quite well at sporting clays. The companionship of other kids and early successes of low level competitions gave her the incentive and interest in pursuing shooting at a higher level. As she gets more serious about her shooting, she is running out of time to do all the events 4-H does and have time for training at ar and sb. So I rather suspect we will ease our way out of 4-H, but that will be her decision not mine. We will stick with the 4-H program for as long as she wants.

The other side..... I totally agree about the government agency desire for all things "paperwork" and the rules imposed by state directors and county agents that just leave you scratching your head. The coaches training programs leave much to be desired, but they also have the task of training a very diverse group. (Roy, I'll be down your way for level 1 rifle training in Dec.) I agree with Joel, it is all about the kids and helping them get involved in shooting. Those 10% like my daughter that want to take things a little more seriously will just have to move on to other venues. I do wish 4-H would take the "competition" side of things a bit more seriously, but alas, I don't see that happening any time soon.