TargetTalk

Rutty wrote:We would all like to see a much larger pool of shooters in all disciplines supported so that they may develop their potential.
But where is the money coming from to do this?

a) The word "we all" would include you, which assertion ostensibly would be incorrect. Try to exchange the personal pronoun for, maybe, "many of you". It will help your credibility.

b) Yes, British Shooting would be totally bankrupt if they had been forced to bear the moderate starting fees for, say, two British junior pistol girls. The parents would have even covered to trip to Italy.

they unfortunately HAD to nominate Gorgs, with loudly gnashing teeth - they never thought that she would be able to make the arbitrarily high "British extra qualification score", which is FAR above the Olympic MQS

I should be interested to hear the evidence to support your contention that they (BS?) were reluctant to nominate Georgina Geike. I presume that the sources are in the public domain and verifiable?

Yes they are. It is the Olympic Selection Policy that is (or at least was) on file on the BS website. Everybody can check it. It was set up at a time when it was reasonably unconceivable that Gorgs would ever be able to reach that purposefully high score in the remaining rather short time. Alas, she scored an unexpectedly good result at the European Championships 2011 (which was 16 rings about her Olympic result now) - just imagine the shocked dismay in British Shooting.

The "British extra qualification score" which is in fact the Minimum Consideration Score (MCS) was imposed upon British Shooting (BS) by the British Olympic Association (BOA). BS were obliged to calculate the MCS

This is simply bullshit. You freely invented it, and I am not inhibited to call you a shameless liar. But feel free to show me to be prejudiced and to post, in scan, the original documents upon which you purport to base your tall tale?
The fact is that we are dealing with pre-assigned and granted host nation quota places here. Oh, I forgot you never might have heard the expression before.

Alexander

Alexander,

The British Shooting Selection Policy Document is available here:

http://britishshooting.org.uk/uploads/d ... policy.pdf

It has been indicated previously in this thread and contains all the details required. You may not agree with it, I may not agree with it, but like it or not it has been adhered to.

Due to your uncivil and intemperate outburst in the preceding post I shall no longer converse with you.

Rutty

Rutty wrote:The British Shooting Selection Policy Document is available here (...) it has been adhered to.

Yes, exactly as I said before (quote: "the Olympic Selection Policy that is (or at least was) on file on the BS website"), and it has been adhered to; and this document is exactly the problem, as I indicated.
And yes, you are unable to back up your fancy claim, as I expected.

Alexander

How appropriate that British Shooting can be abreviated to BS...

:-)
Instead of musing about the possible deep hidden wisdom behind this acronymic serendipity :-D, I would rather like to link to Morgan Cook's (pistol team captain) INSIDE (and INSIGHTful) information about British Shooting and their despicable behaviour:
http://www.insidethegames.biz/blogs/172 ... selections
Go to the comments section at the bottom, entry of 27th July 2012.

Alexander

Postscript:
Ron feels that it is very important and due that I any remove possibility of doubt, and should make clear that Morgan Cook is ONLY the army pistol team captain, and nothing as exalted (so I understand his justified criticism) as a team captain of the United Kingdom, or of Great Britain, or of England, or of the Isle of Sark. I herewith duly repent and clarify.

As mitigating factor (only that, because I sense the objective weight of my guilt), I might meekly explain that "captain" is a military rank or a maritime function in my backwaters, and that the very Anglo (resp. Commonwealth) institution of "team captains" in sport is little known here except in football, and definitely is not a part of our shooting tradition.
The one odd chap who can read and write ;-) and speak two coherent sentences in from of a microphone is designated as a team representative here, signs the score sheets, and that's it. No master and commander, sorry.

Interesting. I don't know you, Alexander, but I respect you. There are many I don't respect, those who are merely spectators, and always will be.
I have retained copies of ALL documentation, including the British Shooting Implementation Plan for the 2012 Olympic Games. Very detailed, very comprehensive plans for the creation of Cartridge Pistol Training Centres (CPTCs) across the UK to fully prepare shooting athletes for selection into Team GB (dated 2007). These CPTCs were to be fully manned with RCOs, Range Staff, and Coaches. The athletes would be fully supported and have access to shooting ranges, cartridge pistols, ammuntion for FULL TIME Training.
Fantastic plan............... but EPIC FAIL.
The UK NGB British Shooting FAILED IN ENTIRETY to support their cartridge pistol athletes:
2010 - 10 days of training provided
2011 - less
No fit for purpose shooting range provided in UK.
I have the photographs of me having to make target frames, wooden tables, firing platforms - I spent more time doing administration than what I did shooting because NOTHING was provided!!!!!
No funding provided, not even to cover GB Team tracksuits?

I just cannot comprehend WHY the RFP athletes were cut down and instructed to forget the goal in August 2011, told that the door had closed, nearly 12 months before the start of the Games? And at this point two of their athletes had achieved Olympic MQS to use the Host Nation Quota Place.

And a point about WHO has responsibility - IT IS THE NGB (BS) WHO DECIDE THE MCS (BOA CONSIDER AND AGREE). I have the email from Georgie Harland at the BOA; The NGB (BS) are responsible for setting the selection criteria and for selecting the athletes for Team GB.

I have many questions but my main one is - what is the most effective way to bring British Shooting to account. For absolutely failing to provide a training venue and for failing to support their RFP athletes? An example of their absolute inefficiency: ONLY British Shooting can apply to the Home Office for Section 5 authority for their athletes. British Shooting sent Jack to represent GBR at 4 World Cups and the European Championships with NO Firearms License and NO Section 5 Authority. I have retained copies of ALL documentation received from SCANLON and REDHEAD and those other spectators at British Shooting. They make some very interesting reading..........thoughts welcome.

How do I know about Jack, because I was the other athlete there with him.

For those timid souls who shall always be spectators, understand this - I am the most successful Marksman of the British Army, Double Winner of HM The Queen's Medal and record holder for the largest margin winning score ever recorded since the competition began in 1869. Four times British Armed Forces Service Rifle Champion, Champion at Arms of the British Army, Double International Champion. My PB in RFP is 587/600, scoresheet printed and signed by the GB Coach Hugh Hunter, achieved within 18 months from novice. Againt all odds achieved the MQS for the 2010 CWG Delhi - NOT SELECTED. Against overwhelming odds achieved the MQS for the 2012 OG London - NOT SELECTED. Am I bitter, no, disappointed, yes. Disappointed that our NGB are in such a bad way, run by spectators who have no real say. Trust me, I have the emails from the CEO down. Spineless spectators.

Thoughts welcome from the spectators. I'll be seeing you soon enough, in court. Morgan Cook

Welcome to,the world of international shooting, I'd doubt there is an International shooting athlete out there that hasn't been wronged by their NGB. I'm sure you have an appeals process, probably should have followed that way back when you first felt you were wronged. Usually the appeals process can go all the way up to the CAS. The problem at this late date is there probably isn't anything that could be done to remedy your situation, hence why your appeal should have been placed at the time of the initial decision.

From the side lines I am not surprised at what I have heard and read regarding GB shooting and the semi-auto cartridge pistol events. I circulated Morgan Cook's regarding selection that were referenced earlier and they just confirmed what we had heard earlier that the shooters were well and truly shafted.

My club, and I know one other, non-UK club were quite happy to run practice sessions for any GB shooter who was in the Olympic squad. I know this invitation was only verbally issued to one young man and his mother but they were told that everyone was welcome. I spent last Easter running our range for rapid fire training for him., after our rapid-fire competition (OK it was only on paper targets). This offer was made in 2010, but he was the only one who ever turned up.

I also understand that the firearm certificates expire straight after the Olympics and I will be extremely (but I hope I may be) surprised if the UK governing bodies fight to keep them.

I intend to respond to Morgan Cook's very informative posting lateron. But I would like to address one other issue before:

ramseyoptom wrote:I circulated Morgan Cook's regarding selection that were referenced earlier and they just confirmed what we had heard earlier that the shooters were well and truly shafted.

This is an assessment not just concerning rapid fire pistol, but also the other pistol disciplines (Mick Gault's example has been named various times, notably because Alan Hubbard had featured him in an earlier article on the issue).
However, the selection of Gorgs Geikie and the selection of Charlotte Kerwood (against Abbey Burton) have also been criticized. I think one must netly differentiate two different issues here:

- One issue is the outright and shameful decision NOT to use all the allocated host nation quota places, and rather let them go to waste resp. to barter one of them against one other place (a barter that as we see now, did not bring any advantage to the Olympic results).
- The other issue is the decision w.r.t. individual shooters, id est, "whom to select". Here, hindsight can always pretend to be wiser. It may now appear to have been "wrong" to nominate Kerwood instead of Burton, or Geikie instead of Lydall or Mullin, but that was within the discretionary range of the selecting and nominating body, and only improper considerations underlying the selection decision should be impugned thus (such as considerations of class or social standing, as one clay shooting magazine editor has alleged).
What can and may also be criticized is wrong talent assessment and wrong prediction of performance, but that is not a moral reproach, but simply a question about the ability of the selecting bodies. "Spectator quality", Morgan would say. ;-)

I also understand that the firearm certificates expire straight after the Olympics and I will be extremely (but I hope I may be) surprised if the UK governing bodies fight to keep them.

All the meanwhile published Section 5 Authorities from Scotland (they are net.accessible, though heavily anonymized) have temporal limits, and I suppose the very same is true for English permits.
However, there are rumours that these "authorities" may be prolonged in order to cover preparation and training for the 2014 Commonwealth games in Glasgow. I am not aware whether the involved shooters have already formally applied for such prolongation / continuation. Of course, a number of new shooters could now apply as well - that is, if it were not for British Shooting's stifling attitude.

Alexander

Rutty wrote:Alexander,

The British Shooting Selection Policy Document is available here:

http://britishshooting.org.uk/uploads/d ... policy.pdf

It has been indicated previously in this thread and contains all the details required. You may not agree with it, I may not agree with it, but like it or not it has been adhered to.

Due to your uncivil and intemperate outburst in the preceding post I shall no longer converse with you.

Rutty

ahm.. hi yeahh your exactly right.. thanks for you link ^_^
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