TargetTalk

jmkwyo wrote:To the person who said you can't wear jeans when you shoot... that is incorrect...You cannot wear jeans under shooting pants.

Have you read the ISSF Dress Code Interpretation?

Right, but to be perfectly honest, that rule only effects 10% of the shooting population right? Unless you are shooting at the top levels in the states or internationally you probably won't have a problem shooting with jeans at a local NRA ISU match.

In reference to Eric U,

Man...it seems like those of us who shoot exclusively prone should certainly be behind keeping the shooting pants for our 3P breather en. The more support the better. It keeps guys like Eric dividing their time between 3P and Prone (long into old age)! It's hard enough competing against REALLY OLD GUYS (like Eric). If he was shooting JUST prone...well let's just say it would be somewhat demoralizing.

Heh! :) Bp

How many of the people out there that want to ban pants shoot more than say 3-4 hours a week?

I shoot a minimum of 20 hours a week in season sometimes more if i can manage it but with classes and homework its hard. Those of us that shoot that much and more know that even with pants back problems exist. My back is in pain after i shoot even a short practice and im 19 and workout on a regular basis and dont have any back problems that run im my family . For those of us shooting for many hours a week we need the pants not to keep us competitive but to keep us shooting.

I love this sport and i work hard at it. I dont want to have to give it up.

The cost of the pants where it is a large sum of money in the beginning if you look over a short period of time like someone before me pointed out the cost is minimal. Pants will last a long time with care. I have had my KT suit for 3 years now and i love it. If you split the cost of the pants over that amount of time then you would pay more for say music lessons a year than the cost of the pants. And those pants still have many years.

The most expensive part of shooting competitively is the cost of ammo. Spending 5000 a year on ammo is a lot bigger cost than say 1000 dollars even 4 years for a pair of pants. Now 5000 may be steep for ammo but those that shoot the best ammo to get the best scores know that. If you want to make this sport cheaper than find away to make the best ammo cheaper.


Brian Carstensen

Toucher Brian

I have watched Brian as his scores have improved over the years. And he brings up an excellent point. If you are a shooter that intends on shooting enough to reach his/her full potential and has goals of making an Olympic Team, the sheer number of hours devoted to practice is extreme. Any number of hours spent in ANY position (regardless of the sport) is painful - and offhand requires the MOST number of hours. It is easy to see why not only does a world class shooter need the support but also needs a full time chiropractor and a massage therapist down the line.

Keep the pants. Keep the rules as they are. Bp

I'd normally say that I wear the pants in my family, but in this case, no. I'm limited to prone, but I can shoot offhand if I want to - albeit poorly. I'm a much better instructor/coach in that relm.

Glad the consensus seems to be to keep the pants. I have a pair of Freeland pants in size 34 and in excellent condition still in the inventory, and I'd like to get rid of them!

i really not going to get the that level of shooting i just wear the jacket only with shooting stand up and prone but that it..

In France the great part of the competition pratice in air rifle use jacket, pant and boots.
We are a small nation in shooting and the number of nationals shooter is low but it' seem crazy to think that we shoot without gear.
I m 61 and I shoot since the 70's, with the sports (running and walk) and jacket pants and boot I can still shoot the 10m and 3 pos (smalbore and Highpower) easly, if this gear become irregular, I stop the shoot, too dangerous for may back and my spin.
I m rigth the most of the despense in shooting are the ammo, because it's every season, not only 5 or 6 years to change.
I like shooting and hope to shoot still many years..
Salutations a tous

In France the great part of the competition pratice in air rifle use jacket, pant and boots.
We are a small nation in shooting and the number of nationals shooter is low but it' seem crazy to think that we shoot without gear.
I m 61 and I shoot since the 70's, with the sports (running and walk) and jacket pants and boot I can still shoot the 10m and 3 pos (smalbore and Highpower) easly, if this gear become irregular, I stop the shoot, too dangerous for may back and my spin.
I m rigth the most of the despense in shooting are the ammo, because it's every season, not only 5 or 6 years to change.
I like shooting and hope to shoot still many years..
Salutations a tous

Here's the latest in shooting clothing:

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/techno ... oskeleton/

It is guaranteed to save the back of the shooter holding a heavy rifle for long periods.

(joke :) )

The cost issue on an individual basis may be affordable, but when running a club where one needs many different sizes (in both right handed and left handed iterations) the costs quickly become excessive.

As to back support issues, perhaps we should look to those who tried back supports for their employees (United Parcel Service) only to discontiiue use of them when back injury rates increased. seems the drivers got so used to the support belts that they began having more off-duty back injuries (as they had let their muscles begin to atrophy).

Proper positions, as well as strength and flexibility training can overcome the sore back syndrome. I do not use shooting pants, train without the shooting jacket most of the time (but do use it in competition, and would be happy not to if that were the rule). At age 63 my eyesight is much more a limiting factor than back problems ( but only after beginning a training plan including flexibility, stretching, and lots of "core" exercises about ten years ago).

swattdoc wrote:Does any research exist that definitively shows that pants actually do provide a protective function? I'm not sure that they can be compared to weight lifter belts.

Tom

Couldn't say. But there's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest it's a valid topic for research (if someone hasn't already).

Plus, plenty of older shooters cannot physically complete a course without the pants. This suggests they do offer substantial lumbar support.
Plus for kneeling, there is empirical medical evidence - like Sparks' left knee, which now has no sensation from excessive shooting in the kneeling position without the padding offered by canvas pants.

In the UK we advertise ourselves as a "sport for all", and point out how Olympic medal tables feature everyone from older veterans like Warren Potent through to the 18-19 year old Chinese lad that won a pistol medal at Beijing.

If we get rid of pants, it may well chop the entire top end (by age) from the international scene, and come into line with much of the rest of international sport where you're burnt out by 35-45.
Plus, everyone has the kit. If it passes EC, they are not gaining any advantage over anyone else.

As for the kids/clothing issue someone raised, there are ways to get kids into the sport - sporter air rifle for instance which requires no special clothing, so is cheap to run and focuses on developing core shooting skills in the first instance.
One of the UK's best shooters - James Huckle - started off on Field Target which is shooting at knock-down silhouettes in fields and woods with an air rifle. He's just medalled in a senior event at the Commonwealth Shooting Federation Championships, having spent the last couple of years cleaning up the world junior stage, and the UK domestic scene.
If kids want to take it further, then they've been around shooting long enough not to be intimidated by the kit, and to know they want to splash the cash.

Indeed, the financial side is almost negligible. Compared to transport, accommodation and competition entry costs for the international circuit, as well as the cost of rifles and shooting batch tested ammunition, blowing a few hundred bucks every 5 years for jacket and pants is neither here nor there.

I keep seeing the lighter rifle card coming up so I'd just like to throw this out there. What rifles are yall using that they weigh like two pounds? I've got an Anschutz 2002 that is a whole lot heavier than that. My largest concern is that those of us that have bought equipment in the last year will pretty much have wasted a sizable chunk of change. and what is this crap about the penguin walk? Yeah we walk in a way to save out equipment but that's the same as driving a exotic sports car like a grandma because you don't want to have to pay to repair or replace it. I can understand stopping new materials from coming into play because they might take things too far in providing support. I can't understand telling hundreds or thousands of people that they can't use the 200+ dollars in equipment they just bought because it may give them an unfair advantage.

And this level playing field is crap. The biggest difference in a pair of 200$ pants and 600$ pants is cost. Other than that it just psychological. I haven't heard people pulling the level playing field card to justify restricting things on rifles. hell, I'm shooting with ten year old Gehman pants and within 5 points of and occasionally beating people with brand new Monard equipment and shiny new Feinwerbau rifles. It doesn't make that much of a difference.

I agree that the ISSF need to put all the energy they put into arguing about the rules in to marketing the sport. I live in Georgia and I didn't even know Air rifle was an Olympic sport until I started shooting on my High School varsity team.

As far as the back pain goes, I also feel some pain when I shoot in the standing position and I'm 17 years old. working out doesn't help it at all, I do plenty of that for Lacrosse.

Mostly i think they need to let it be.

Oly,

I agree. They need to let it be, but...

If you have a 10 year old pair of Gehmann pants, you may not be in a position to understand the advantage of new custom fitted pants. And if you are shooting 5 points away from others who shoot with brand new equipment, that's great...but the type of score we are discussing here is a goal of 590+. It's easy to shoot 5 points away from your peers if you are shooting below 580, but I can almost guarantee you would overtake them IMMEDIATELY with a solid pair of hi-end pants. The difference between a $200 pair (even a $600 pair) and $1100 pair of custom pants is EXTREME. If you had the opportunity to tryout a pair, you would not say that it is psychological. Why do you think the top shooters in the world buy a new kit ahead of world championships and Olympics? It's not because they want to spend money. It's because the new kit provides every ounce of stiffness and support they need to compete on that level.

And, if you are still playing lacrosse, shooting up to your potential is likely to be impossible. Contact sports and shooting don't mix for a whole host of reasons. Keep in mind that this topic is being discussed by not only those who are part of club teams but also those who pursue shooting as their only sport and have defined long-term goals - like making the World Cup or Olympic Teams. When you shoot (practice) enough to reach that level, the support that pants give are the only measure of protection against long-term back problems as well as keeping your scores on par with the very best.

Bp

Pat McCoy wrote:...
As to back support issues, perhaps we should look to those who tried back supports for their employees (United Parcel Service) only to discontiiue use of them when back injury rates increased. seems the drivers got so used to the support belts that they began having more off-duty back injuries (as they had let their muscles begin to atrophy).

Hi

I wanted to backup Pat's comment above. My son took weight lifting in High School, (Wichita KS), back in 2004-5. He was taught to do squats both with and without the belt because you can lift more WITH a belt, but lifting without the belt strengthen's different muscles. (probably your back and abs.

I think we might want to look at this in a slightly different way. If it hurts to do something so much that you need a brace (leather pants), maybe we're lifting too much weight, in an anatomically bad fashion.

Maybe we need to re-design stocks so that it's no longer necessary to throw your hip out. Back in the 1990's an American Silhouette shooter (rifle @ 500 meters), built a gun with a chin rest stock. G. David Tubbs. They made him quit using it because is was different, but Tubbs isn't JUST HIS LAST NAME if you've seen his pictures. In addition, he was doing all of his shooting in the offhand position.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

jmkwyo wrote:To the person who said you can't wear jeans when you shoot... that is incorrect...You cannot wear jeans under shooting pants.

All back issues and money issues aside (because you can pick up a complete set of 'leathers' for under $400), and usually for juniors a lot of clubs provide the equipment. I started without leathers and eventually when I earned my way on to a college team I was given pants and other more advanced equipment. I have no problems shooting without pants, but to be honest I would rather shoot a consistent 9 or 10 with pants ,than I would a larger hold w/out pants. I enjoy training w/o pants to work on my hold, but pants make the sport more enjoyable for me and many other shooters out there.

"Prohibited clothing items for competitions and award ceremonies include blue jeans, jeans or similar trousers in non-sporting colors, camouflage clothing, sleeveless T-shirts, shorts that are too short, ragged cut-off shorts, all types of sandals, trousers with patches or holes as well as shirts or trousers with non-sporting or inappropriate messages (See Rule 6.10.1).
"

It's pretty clear you cannot wear Jeans... Although You can't wear flip flops either I suppose.

--Larissa

They will be kicking a lot of people out of the OTC this year at JORC then? Just about everyone wears jeans before and after the match... will be interesting to see if it gets enforced.

Is there any definition of "jeans", "blue jeans", and "sporting colors"? Without that, there is no leg to stand on vis-a-vis rulings. Denim comes in all sorts of colors now. Is a blue gabardine pant with riveted pockets considered a "jean"? I'm sure the ISSF does not have clothiers among their experts!

jmkwyo wrote:They will be kicking a lot of people out of the OTC this year at JORC then? Just about everyone wears jeans before and after the match... will be interesting to see if it gets enforced.

The answer to this question is for the most part no. We had a meeting tonight at SAG and Lindsay informed us that this ISSF rule will be phased in to a degree. Don't need a tux, but ripped jeans, ripped-tshirts, short-shorts, vulgar logos,etc on in the range .... come-on ... show a bit of class ... they have many visitors coming thru and you do want to have them leave with a good image of your sport.

Again, this flared up (not just here in the US) because a very SMALL minority did not/does not care what image they project. Most of you juniors ... the VAST majority of you, are cool

So juniors, don't get uptight about the JO's, pretty much the same rules will apply as last year ... anything different will be posted I'm sure

jmkwyo wrote:They will be kicking a lot of people out of the OTC this year at JORC then? Just about everyone wears jeans before and after the match... will be interesting to see if it gets enforced.

It's an advisory. Given that the rule does not directly relate to competition conditions, unfair advanages, etc, then organisers of events below World Cup type stuff (i.e. national or state events where the ISSF does not directly oversee proceedings) are more or less at liberty to say "we will not enforce this interpretation at this meeting", or "we will enforce this interpretation, with the exception of jeans, provided they are not ripped or otherwise damaged".

i.e. leaves it open for people to use common sense and turn up presentable, which is more or less what jhmartin says JORC will be doing. Nothing overtly offensive or outlandish. Just asking people to be sensible, jeans need to be "smart jeans" i.e. clean, unripped, etc. Trainers need to be clean, not falling apart with toes poking through like a hobo, etc, etc, etc.

Not sure what ISSF juries will make of Matt Emmons. I've seen picture of him shooting after taking a stanley knife and cutting dirty great rents across his jacket to get it just so - looks a complete mess!