Matchguns and Morini, any major difference?

[j-team]

So, the Hammerli 152.

Did it not work well or wasn't it mass produced?

[Tzed250]

.

IIRC I saw the Walther FP w/electronic trigger at Camp Perry in 1980.

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[Tycho]

The Green dates back to the 60s. I forgot about the Hammerli 152, though - but I'm not sure if it can be counted either as a success or as mass production...

[Guest]

hmmmmmmm, it seems to me that anyone familiar with the long history of Cesare's creations, as cutting edge as some are, would be hard pressed to make the above statement. The various iterations of various guns that have been made over the years since his leaving Morini in Bedano are great for a gunsmiths banck account, and their various difficluties seem to me to be "technical and enginnering shortcomings".

I think Cesare's guns are fine for those who want to (.......) and be the beta testers.
(......) But for the beginning shooters and those new to sport, such as Guest who started this thread, owning such a gun (the MG2 that is, my addition) is a sure recipe for disapointment.
They want to shoot, not wonder why their gun is'nt working.

Thanks, Moderator, for correcting the point of balance of the MG2 dilemma.
I fully adhere to your statements above, "Pilkguns".

And I am not a novice, ... to the contrary, I am a relative experienced shooter, even with some international competitive experience.
And I have owned about as many guns as "deadeyedick" claims he has. And, btw, I do not suffer from "shortcoming of techincal knowhow." Nobody has ever accused me for that...

My long time experiences with the MG2 differs very, very much from those of "deadeyedick".

[Tycho]

So get yourself a login and a p.m. adress, genius. And stick to your whatever you shoot - and whatever that may be, I'm sure I can tell a tale of one of those pistols not working they way it should. But I agree to the general finding, the MG2 is not the pistols for technical amateurs and believers in full comprehensive covers.

[deadeyedick]

Thanks for the support Tycho...and I agree that people should register before mouthing off. Sometimes I think that some of these people have commercial interests in other brands, and throw these red herrings in to further confuse less experienced shooters towards brand B instead of A . Firstly "guest", let me ask you this..do you own an MG2?...secondly, Scott Pilkington did not clear up the misunderstanding regarding MG2's, he simply stated his opinion , and one which was from a retailers perspective [ the less trouble you have after the cash register chimes, the better ], and being in the same position, I would probably feel the same way. Finally, had you read the earlier posts correctly, there was another "guest"...maybe yourself in fact, that stated that the quality of Matchguns was not equal to the quality of Morini. This is utter rubbish, and now that the new slide and ejectors are slotted into production pistols, there are no mechanical problems whatsoever.
My pistol was updated free of charge by Stefano Calzetti, and performs magnificiently with any ammo, day in and day out. Forget the past and update your thinking to the way things are now..not two or three years ago.
Pistols [contrary to what many say] are not rocket science, and the current MG2 deserves a +++ rating, based on its innovative design, and current reliability. I own one, and use it regularly and have owned most makes, [and would choose the MG2 pistol again ] and have no connections with Cesare Morini, but want the record set straight when I hear such gibberish as is often stated by many in reference to Matchguns, which is mainly rumour/heresay, and not from personal ownership experiences with recently produced pistols. For those with older guns...read "updated parts ", and in my case, at no expense. Call your National distributor for more info.

[Guest]

current reliability.

The current MG2 have improved some in terms of reliability, but it still has a long, long way to go....

[Brian James]

There is no doubt MG had its issues with the first generation of the MG2s, fortunately it evolved and is a very reliable pistol. Our “Guest” likes Morni Arms, as do I. But our “Guest” needs to remember Morini Arms has not produced a truly new pistol in years. As a result, I wouldn’t expect them to have any reliability issues.

As previously documented in other threads, many pistol manufactures have had production issues at some point in their history. The Walther GSP comes to mind, as it has a reputation of being a truly durable pistol, but originally the frames cracked. Didn’t the Morini 32 have issues? I’ve never heard of the Morini 32 being mass produced and being reliable. Pardini had frames crack, so did Hammerli. Most companies have struggled in producing 100% reliable pistols. The difference now, is MG had to deal with their issues being exposed in the spotlight of internet.

So is the build quality of MG equal to that of Morini or other companies, - in my opinion yes given the history of other companies. Is MGs customer service as good as Morini – yes. I have found Pardini and MG to be excellent at supporting their clients no matter what competitive level they are at. Morini I have found is excellent at World Cups, but not so great at responding to emails when other issues arise.

I truly wonder how much of the constant bashing of the MG line has to do with the quality of the products, versus the politics of the pistol manufacturing community in Italy and Switzerland. There can’t be that many pistol designers like Ceasre, and I suspect there maybe some bad blood between the different players.

Time to get back to work,

Brian

[Guest]

There is no doubt MG had its issues with the first generation of the MG2s,

Surely had, and still has.

Didn’t the Morini 32 have issues?

Yes. It was ill faithed. And withdrawn from the market.
The MG2 was, as the Morini CM 32, released to the market, without proper testing.
The CM 32 was withdrawn, the MG2 was not. That I will blame the MG company for. Being aware of the troubles, continued bringing out guns they knew would bring trouble and cost to their customers.

[Brian James]

Guest,

I didn't realize the CM32 was pulled off the market, I thought it was still production in a limited fashion.

If you don't mind me asking, what issues does the current MG2 have in your opinion. I was under the impression from current owners the current production of MG2 was a reliable and safe pistol. Is there something we should be aware of that you know that we current MG owners may not? I'm asking, because while I love the pistol, I'm not blind or foolish. If there is a genuine issue, let’s talk about. If there is no issue, raising your concern may be a way to address your concern and that of others.

Brian

[David Levene]

There is no doubt MG had its issues with the first generation of the MG2s,

Surely had, and still has.

Guest, are you saying that the first generation MG2s had issues or that the current generation have issues.

If current, then please explain what the issues are.

[Weekend Shooter]

Even the venerable Beretta has had some problems. The current 92FS used to be the 92 F which with the the stopper S, the slide would fly off into the face of the user.

I guess the discussion is whether the problems associated with the first run were really too much for a reasonable / prudent person. My guess would be that since it's such a specialized piece of equipment for a very limited and experienced clientele, the bugs (which the manufacturer fixes) should not be the end of the world.

An off the shelf Brioni or Canali suit may be nice, but a bespoke suit still looks better but requires several trips to the tailor.

I should be getting my hands on the MG2 next week with the rest of the club. I ll tell you how it goes.

[Renback]

CM 32 is still on the market.

[Mike Taylor]

In view of the following correspondence, it seems incorrect to say that the CM32 is "still on the market".

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Taylor
To: morini@bluewin.ch
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:21 PM
Subject: Availability of CM 32M

Francesco,
Is the Morini target pistol CM 32M currently in production?
My dealer in Canada told me that he has had the pistol on 'back order' for a very long time.
Thank you,
Michael Taylor

The reply from Francesco:
"Not yet, I hope to have it by end of the year."

Well, it is getting close to the end of the year, so if Renback has seen a new CM32, it would be correct to say the CM32 is again on the market.

[deadeyedick]

I am so thrilled with the performance of my updated MG2RF, that I am purchasing the electronic version with the ergal 7075 front counterweight.
I know that taste is personal , but the "italianess" for want of a better term, and general feeling of a natural oneness with my right arm, combined with its now supreme reliability, have me totally in love with this pistol. Without seeming too weird, there is a personal bond between me and this pistol that I have never experienced with any of my previous pistols. Only when you have this connection does my previous statements make sense. Many years ago I had the same feeling towards a Ducati motorcycle I owned, and more recently an older Lamborghini car. Funny how all were Italian. Anyway, my continual harping on about this is brought about by people like "guest" [ not the author of this thread ], who continually makes derogatory comments regarding the pistols current performance......without ever disclosing any credentials for scrutiny, or elaborating on "real life" experiences with an MG2. For me, I don't care..., but for the likes of Stefanno Calzetti and Cesare Morini, who obviously are trying hard every day to satisfy customers like me, and provide the shooting public with a 21st' century competition pistol, it must be very disheartening to say the least, and I find it difficult to not report on the present performance, rather than whine on about previous teething problems and function deficiencies of the past. If there are any other later model owners out there...stand up and be counted..these are marvelous creations and should be applauded as such.

[Guest]

In view of the following correspondence, it seems incorrect to say that the CM32 is "still on the market".

Is the Morini target pistol CM 32M currently in production?

Well, it is getting close to the end of the year, so if Renback has seen a new CM32, it would be correct to say the CM32 is again on the market.

The CM 32 was withdrawn from the market a few years back. Only a limited run of, say, semi-prototypes ever left the factory.
The CM 32 has, since the withdrawal, until this very day, NOT been available to the customer.

The CM 32 is listed as "available" at the webpages of Morini. But it surely is not available.

The MG4 (.32 caliber) has been advertized at the MG webpages as "available", then "available late 2007", then "available by march 2008", then "available soon", then "soon ready for shipment" etc....
No MG4 have until this day been available to the market, if I am informed correctly (which I think I am...)

The first some thousands (according to serialnumbers) of MG2s had so many issues, that I, and others, just got fed up. Have got replacementparts (after long delays), but my MG2 is as unreliable as ever.

It think, due to the immense problems this gun has brought to very many customers, it deserves to be labeled "the most complicated, unreliable, and user-unfriendly gun" (of its class) to hit the customer in modern times.

I hope, the MG works will, sometime in the future succeed in making a reliable gun. And earn an escape from mentioned "label".
And, not to forget, post an unlimited excuse for the dispair, expences, and disencouragements tha MG2 brought along to a large group of customers in many countries.

And Tycho/Deadeyedick (same individual? No?...): I do not own any Morini arm at present (traded off my old M162 to get a Steyr LP2 last year).
But I do own a MG2..... :-(

[Tycho]

Dear Guest - no, I'm definitely not deadeyedick. About everybody else must have realized by now that I am Swiss, not Australian.

My MG4 was shipped some days ago, and I am really looking forward to it. From what I've heard from Stefano, I'd be surprised if it didn't work. That would be the fifth MG I own, and the other four work nicely. We have several others in my club, most of them working perfectly well. Some exceptions, but not more that with your bunch of Pardinis, Hammerlis and whatever else.

The award for the most unfriendly gun ever must undoubtedly go to the CM102E, which never really worked, and nobody ever found out why - users were basically abandoned by the manufacturer. And I wouldn't want to know how many CM32 are lying around unused. Every pistol released to the market in the last 15 years had its share of problems, including Hammerli and Walther, so slow down with your Matchguns rant. At least MG does everything they can with their resources to support users and to get the pistols already delivered running.

I can understand it if you are frustrated, on the other hand I've heard quite some tales now where I am really asking myself what people are thinking and expecting when they go and buy a new Cesare Morini designed target pistol right off the design board, without keeping a backup, and without thinking about how to get support. If you are living somewhere out in the waste howling wilderness, do something else, but do not buy Italian pistols. If you are not willing to invest some time, work and money into a project, don't do it. And if you can't stand it when other people get something working that you can't figure out for the life of it, don't do it.

[David Levene]

The award for the most unfriendly gun ever must undoubtedly go to the CM102E, which never really worked, and nobody ever found out why - users were basically abandoned by the manufacturer.

Another one of Cesare's designs. Wasn't he still running Morini at the time (mid 1980s)?

[Tycho]

I'm not sure - and I think it would depend on who you ask - who was running Morini SA at which time. At some time or another, the Repich family got involved, and to tell the truth, I'd be surprised if the Morini company in Switzerland would have gotten out of the blocks without 3rd party money = Repich. AFAIK Morini as a a pistol manufacturer first came on the market with the CM80 (some of which were actually made in Italy, at least my one is) and later took over (by means unknown to me) Airmatch (which later led by way of the CM800E to the 162E). Please correct me if somebody has more facts! The late 80s brought the unlucky 102E, which despite all its faults is in my view still unsurpassed in recoil recovery (probably because of excellent mass concentration), but tricky to shoot und trickier to maintain. But at least it was the foundation for the MG2 (by way of some SAM Lugano prototypes I've seen...), so it led to a good thing :-)

[Brian James]

Tycho,

Just so I understand, the MG2 was partially developed at SAM Lugano? Is there a relationship between SAM and MG? I just visited the SAM website and noticed it hasn't updated in a while and they appear to have stopped selling the UK free pistol.

Brian