TargetTalk

Steve Swartz wrote:Oh sorry but about that align vs aim thing-

If you release the shot when you have "perfect sight picture" the muzzle isn't going to be there anymore by the time the skirt clears.

The shot has to be released *before* perfect sight picture, and while the muzzle is swinging into perfect position.

Steve,

I follow the description that Don Nygord put in his Notes. There is a period of time, after I settle, that the sights appear to be motionless. I try to break my shot during that motionless period. I have found that once that time passes and if I try to chase the sights around on the target, things rapidly go downhill for me.

Don wrote this:

So, the lesson is: Start the pressure on the second stage as you settle into the aiming area and keep increasing it at a rate that allows the shot to break JUST AS YOU ENTER THE STEADIEST PART OF YOUR HOLD. Note we have insisted on using "steadiest" not "steady". No one is completely steady, nor is it necessary to be! The shot just has to release as the gun enters the area that will result in a 10. Soon, you will realize that your subconscious is sort of 'steering' the gun with the trigger pressure into that area. And never forget - YOU (consciously) cannot do this! Just let your subconscious do it and enjoy!

He also described it somewhere else (can't find it now), but it sure describes what I see. He mentioned an apparent motionless period, and that's what I see.

Stan

Stan:

That's interesting, and I have certainly heard it before. The idea of having a "period of stillness" would certainly be a big help!

I have never seen it with my own eyes. Even on a Noptel trace of world-class and national champion shooters; some of whom said they actually saw a "moment of stillness" (MoS) when . . . or as? . . . they broke the shot. Replay the sholt . . . nope . . . still no MoS.

So

I concluded that what they were calling a "moment of stillness" and what I was calling a "moment of stillness" must be two different things.

Fair enough- they were shooting better scores than I so I obviously had to change my way of thinking!

It took about a year to come up with the following:

- My definiton of "stillness" meant "The Gun Isn't Moving" (impossible)

- Their definition of stillness meant:
A. "The gun is moving as little as it is ever going to get" or
B. "The gun is moving slowly and predictably within my minimal arc of movement" or
C. "The movement is close enough to the ten ring that as long as the sights are aligned and I break the trigger clean, it's going to be a ten" or
D. "Time slows down for me as i break the shot, and everything seems to pause momentarily with perfect sight picture" or
E. Some variation of the above?

What's your personal definition- what are you seeing, and waht is going on underneath?

I would never claim someone else isn't seeing what they say they are seeing- but perhaps two people can see the same exact thing and describe it/explain it two very different ways?

OK so in the latest version, align with hold goes to point and align and trigger combine to be release...hence align is has double importance in the latest diagram.

Interesting as many do not distinguish between align and hold or seem to combine the two which you are showing as separate. I concur with your diagram on this concept.

Like Steve, I don't believe there is a period of motionless. What there is however is a point of less motion and/or a period of very good alignment. I believe your brain can sort of trick you when you have that period and that's when your subconscious lets the shot break. You may even 'believe' it was motionless, when in fact it wasn't.

The gun doesn't have to be still though, and people with even quite poor holds can put in very good scores. The answer I believe lies in letting the subconscious rule the shot release timings, which in turn requires a (very) consistent approach and technique.

Rob.

Steve Swartz wrote:Stan:

That's interesting, and I have certainly heard it before. The idea of having a "period of stillness" would certainly be a big help!

I have never seen it with my own eyes. Even on a Noptel trace of world-class and national champion shooters; some of whom said they actually saw a "moment of stillness" (MoS) when . . . or as? . . . they broke the shot. Replay the sholt . . . nope . . . still no MoS.

So

I concluded that what they were calling a "moment of stillness" and what I was calling a "moment of stillness" must be two different things.

Fair enough- they were shooting better scores than I so I obviously had to change my way of thinking!

It took about a year to come up with the following:

- My definiton of "stillness" meant "The Gun Isn't Moving" (impossible)

- Their definition of stillness meant:
A. "The gun is moving as little as it is ever going to get" or
B. "The gun is moving slowly and predictably within my minimal arc of movement" or
C. "The movement is close enough to the ten ring that as long as the sights are aligned and I break the trigger clean, it's going to be a ten" or
D. "Time slows down for me as i break the shot, and everything seems to pause momentarily with perfect sight picture" or
E. Some variation of the above?

What's your personal definition- what are you seeing, and waht is going on underneath?

I would never claim someone else isn't seeing what they say they are seeing- but perhaps two people can see the same exact thing and describe it/explain it two very different ways?

Steve,

When I settle on the target, the sights actually appear motionless, to me, for something like 5 - 7 seconds. The time varies, probably caused by the pull of the moon's gravity at that moment. ;-)

What's going on underneath? Well, a few minutes on a RIKA showed that I was painting a nice circle with a diameter roughly equivalent to the 9.5 scoring ring.

I know your next question. Why don't I always shoot a 9.5 or better? My best guess, after the RIKA work, is:

1) Failure to release the shot during that "motionless" time - 30%

2) Failure to smoothly release the shot (crummy trigger pull) - 60%

3) Poor followthrough - 10%.

Also, the "motionless" period might be the result of how my eyes/brain interpret the input, and the fact that my arms are almost long enough to touch the target!

Stan

Hi Steve

Would ou please post another image of skills pyramid 2 (the one that is at the bottom of Page 1.) I have trouble in reading the writing when I blow it up for printing. Thanks in advance. Bert

HLS:

Sorry about the delay; was traveling about trying to support my nasty habits (shooting). Please PM or email me leslieswartz@verizon.net and I'll send you the file . . . I had assumed everyone would be able to download the file i posted; apologies. Also as soon as our nationals is wrapped up i will be posting a whole "buttload" (sorry for the crudity) of additional information for comment. My ultimate goal is a "distance learning" and "self instructional" type course to help shooters develop in absence of professional world class coaching.

Stan:

What I see is very interesting- and I solicit your feedback- but if we are to assume that you do indeed experience a significant recognizable period of time where your muzzle traveses inside the 9.5 ring, could we not expect:

- the wobble area would be centered on the ten
- the woble area would spend most of the time closer to the ten rign than outside the ten ring (given the 9.5 ring ES)
- assuming you couold recognize the settle, and then TRUST THE PROCESS to simply break the shot correctly (perfect subconscious trigger) within the settle

you would obviously be shooting every shot at least a 9.5; and more than half the shots a ten?

So what is interfering with that desirable outcome?

Stan- I have seen with my own eyes a 7 ring holder shoot ten after ten effortlessly . . . and I have seen a tight nine holder shoot 8 after 8 after 8 . . .

So what do you think?

What's going on?

Steve , I'll make an assumption That instead of a subconcious trigger manulipulation the shooter saw perfection and couldn't stand to wait for the break , and fired with a concious application of pressure. Also known as a jerk. S##t happens. And the note I left for you in GI fractured German was translated as "Oh My God, I have just flung an eight!!" By the way, If your subconsious absolutely refuses to fire the shot , fall back on steadily increasing pressure to at least achieve a suprise shot that will hit the target within your ability to hold. For this unique idea I give credit to the USAMU manual. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Steve Swartz wrote:HLS:

Stan:

What I see is very interesting- and I solicit your feedback- but if we are to assume that you do indeed experience a significant recognizable period of time where your muzzle traveses inside the 9.5 ring, could we not expect:

- the wobble area would be centered on the ten
- the woble area would spend most of the time closer to the ten rign than outside the ten ring (given the 9.5 ring ES)
- assuming you couold recognize the settle, and then TRUST THE PROCESS to simply break the shot correctly (perfect subconscious trigger) within the settle

you would obviously be shooting every shot at least a 9.5; and more than half the shots a ten?

So what is interfering with that desirable outcome?

Stan- I have seen with my own eyes a 7 ring holder shoot ten after ten effortlessly . . . and I have seen a tight nine holder shoot 8 after 8 after 8 . . .

So what do you think?

What's going on?

As I said above:

1) Failure to release the shot during that "motionless" time - 30%

This is really a failure to trust my shot delivery.

2) Failure to smoothly release the shot (crummy trigger pull) - 60%

Probably buck fever.

3) Poor followthrough - 10%.

Just too big of a hurry.

Stan

Stan:

You and I go way back. It's always been about "trusting the process." However simple that may be- it sure as h**l ain't easy. As a matter of fact, I'm still struggling with that myself.

I would *love* to have your hold abilities.

Personally- for what it's worth- I think that's the issue holding the vast majority of us back.

Most shooters are for some reason totally unable to just accept our settle and break the shot.

Why is that so hard? I know it's hard- i myself can't do it every single time- but that is the key issue.

I am firmly convinced that is the true 100% breakthrough magic mojo. How can we get a shooter to shoot to the level of their potential?

*That's* what it's all about!!!!!!

[Shooting to your potential simply means accepting your hold- which you can't do anything about at all on any given day- and perfecting sight alignment, and perfecting trigger release. Settle- accept your settle- seek perfect alignment and release the trigger perfectly. That's the best any of us can ever do. Why is it so hard to accept the best we can do?]

Hi. I am new here and it is indeed a very, very interesting topic. Let me share my two cents worth on the subject of being motionless and the coordination of everythng mentioned for a perfect shot.

Not necessarily in order, I tend to follow a couple of premises:

1-- The perfect shot happens with a seemingly motionless sight picture under so deep a focus that one experiences a certain level of "tachypsychia". I don't know if i spelled that right but i came across that term in massad ayoob files, a regular feature of one of the combat shooting magazines. It's defined as a sort of slow motion state that one experiences at a heightened level of concentration cum adrenaline rush in an effort to achieve the supreme need to preserve one's life; and is commmonly experienced by people who are in a life threatening situation (ie. a gun battle). In that state, everything seems so clear and very detailed because of the perception of the state of slow motion, defying real time. So I would imagine that the motionless-state the shooter experiences is the culmination of that focus needed that results in a perfect shot.

2--For an average(?) shooter like me, it's hard to apply such level of concentration hence my fall back is simply to follow the basics, which everyone knows. But what I constantly remind myself is that all efforts may well be wasted if I am unable to execute the final step properly--squeezing. This has been my most difficult and consistently persistent problem. I jerk a lot. So, in recent times, I often ask myself in between shots "how do I release the shot while maintaining the sight picture?". I think this is the culminating effort that would make a 10. To my mind, nearly everyone who regularly and seriously puts effort at self improvement can do what is asked of shooting. It's the coordination of all these factors that separates the champions from the rest.

PS I have been trying to register myself but despite several attempts keying in the confirmation code, my registration had been denied.

Best regards

Ron B. Robles
Manila, Philippines

Hi Ron,

There are some very good shooters who would take issue with your characterization of squeeze as the final step.

On the contrary, these people take squeeze as the first, last and underlying constant of the whole sequence.

If you hold settle and aim without squeezing, you are very likely going to upset your hold/grip at the last moment with whatever muscle contraction you use to squeeze the trigger. Therefore, the technique that I wish to describe, is to start squeezing right away, and to line up your grip and hold on that squeeze. Then, as the gun begins to settle down, the squeee is increasing, the sights are locking onto the aiming zone, ideally closer and closer to the center, like a marble running around the opening of a funnel, and the gun goes off. The squeeze then goes on into the follow through, and the sight picture is supposed to remain perfect even though the gun is jumping away from the detonation. And as the squeeze continues to tighten in the follow through, if the line of the squeeze is wrong, the trigge finger will pull the sights out of alignment after the shot has gone. This provides feedback for improving the line of the squeeze.

Now according to Hans Standl, Author of "Pistol Shooting as a Sport", the end consequence of this train of thought, is to realize that if you are looking at a perfect sight picture, and the gun has not yet gone off, you must abort, because the hold is now going to start breaking up. As I said before, whatever you do to squeeze the trigger now will disturb the hold.

This technique can be refined later. To begin with, just start squeezing the trigger, and do whatever you can to aim the gun and settle it before it goes off. But whatever happens, the gun must go off. This is counterintuitive. But it sure works.

The difference is between a decisive positive proccess and a hesitating dithering one. As my son told me after a bad session "I could always tell when your shot would go, because you held the gun really steady, and then you started to shake and then the shot broke, and then you steadied down again. That is the definition of the wrong way to go: hold settle squeeze follow through. What you want is squeeze, hold (keep squeezing) shot goes off (keep squeezing, gun jumps up (keep squeezing) gun comes back (keep squeezing) Ok... put the gun down. It is precisely the constant squeeze that makes the sequence one smooth whole instead of a disjointed series of steps.

Naturally, this works best with the heavier trigger weight discilpines. However, I have seen it said that AP and FP trigger weights should be heavy enough to allow this method and that the whole idea of two stage triggers has to do with making you start to squeeze from the get-go. But I must admit that with AP and FP I have no idea what I am talking about.


Best Regards,

Gordon

Please read Mr Friesen's post on proper trigger control over and over. Notice how completely it agrees with what the USAMU advises as what correct trigger manipulation must be. Who has won more than the AMU shooters ? Why would a shooter insist on trying to find a superior method when the road map has already been placed before him / her ? Read the USAMU manual over and over until you not only understand it , Read it until you can do what its talking about. Go forth, Grasshopper And win matches. This is the best advice I can give any shooter, and In my opinion ther is no advice superior to that contained in the manual the AMU has spent many years refining and testing in the crusible of competition,. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Ooohh that was good, Master. Now, can you give me the link to that site please? Thanks. I did not know it existed

Ron,

The USAMU pistol guide can be had here:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

As for Hans Standl , a German Olympian and coach, this material is not on the net. What you need is old fashionned print technology.

Go here:

http://www.abebooks.com/

Type Hans Standl into the author field and you will get multiple copies of his book to choose from. I suggest the hardcover version because the illustrations and pictures are better.

Bill,

It means a lot to me to get validation of my understanding from someone of your stature. It gives me confidence I am going down the right path. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Gordon

Hello Gordon,

Thanks so much for the very informative reply. And the links too. I have actually read that book by Hans Standl, but I guess I failed to really digest its essence. I shoot the air and free pistol with fairly decent scores and I am aware of that constant squeezing thing. The problem is its executition.

Re my airpistol trigger, I have it set at about 520 grams. My first stage is at about 300 grams. Because I don't squeeze the right way, sometimes I tend to pull the trigger to make the front sight go left, sometimes to the right. So, I actually "play" the first stage, pulling and letting go 2 or 3 times, to remind me of the direction my trigger finger should go, before I rest on its second stage as I lower my gun to the aiming area. Now that I am actually talking about it, I probably should be wanting to squeeze the trigger instead of pulling (I guess I am actually tugging) it.

I guess its really mind over matter and trust in the technique. I'll really put effort and try this. Its hard to teach old dogs new tricks.

Many thanks!

Naturally, this works best with the heavier trigger weight discilpines. However, I have seen it said that AP and FP trigger weights should be heavy enough to allow this method and that the whole idea of two stage triggers has to do with making you start to squeeze from the get-go.

I have to admit that the rare occasions that I shoot my 45, I find the slow increase in trgger weight to be a useful mental image. Thinking about slowing down and squeezing the trigger, increasing the weight gradually helps reduce my tendency to jerk the trigger on a 45 pistol.

I do not find the concept as useful with the air pistol (Morini 162e) and the FP (in my case, Morini 84e). I tend to use mental models of smooth release, keep the wrist steady and stable.

A comparison of the trggier weights would be:

FP: nominal 50 grams, or 0.11 pounds
AP: 500 grams minimum, or about 1.1 pounds
Bullseye 45: 1587 grams or 3.5 pound minimum.

As I recall, hardball would be even higher.

The Army marksmanship manual shows charts with a trigger squeesze of increasing pressure for five seconds until the weapon fires. And the manual discusses taking up slack, and initial pressure.

I dare say that on my Morini 84e, that initial pressure would cause the weapon to fire!

How do we reconcile the difference in trigger wieghts?
Are the charts shown in the manual based on experimental data or are they conceptual?

I have difficulty reading the text in the last two diagrams. Do you have a higher resolution version?

Thanks,
Steve Turner

To Pete S. As I understand and use initial pressure and steadily increasing pressure to fire the pistol, the operational idea is to use approximately the same rate of pressure increase on all guns , no matter what the weight of the trigger may be. In order to have the pistol fire during the period of best stillness and control Initial pressure is increased or decreased based on the pressure required to release the hammer or striker. On the Free Pistol the trigger finger might not even touch the trigger until after steadily increasing pressure has begun.[ not the way I do it personally but within my understanding of the technique] or as I shoot the FP just have the lightest possible contact with the trigger and start from there with the steadily increasing pressure. Good Shooting Bill Horton

The times are not conseptual but the average times of the top shooters in NRA slow fire for three gun competition Sorry I overlooked the last question in your post Good Shooting Bill Horton