TargetTalk

blue62 wrote: Steve Swartz is one of the fellas ideas that I like. I wish I could get more of his training ideas and drills.

I personally could get by without a lot of Steve's endless rhetoric. He seems at times to get a tad too cerebral in his dissection of the shooting process but then again that's just my opinion. Ruslan Dyatlov seems to be more centered and realistic as to his methods. Granted, I'm new to 10 M air rifle shooting but I've been shooting for well over 36 years with center fire pistol so I'm not new to the game as it were albeit I no longer do so for many reasons. The "head games" can only carry one so far.

~Phil

We all need to gather knowlege on a given shooting discipline and we all would like to ask the 'experts' for advice and coaching, this is how we progress, but as one national coach said to me, "I can only point you in the right direction and the rest is up to you. If you deviate from that direction i will put you back on track but i don't own your brain you do so use it.

I probably should NOT have singled out Steve Swartz in my above post.
Or perhaps I should have included several other people (all of whom seem to be Pistol Shooters) all or most with Ideas or thoughts that I don't always understand. What Steve and the others do, is they make me think about what it is I want to do with my shooting. They give me (or create in my mind) ideas, thoughts, about training plans,trigger control,shot plans,what it takes to deliver a good shot.

Now I will never shoot to the level of the guys I am talking about.
I only shoot NRA club matchs on the local level and that is fine with me.
But Steve and the others sure give me Ideas on how to improve at my level.

Ok back to the original intent of this thread "Training drills".
I (due to Steves and others writings)have begun to look at the vertical -vs- the horizontal movment of the sights
Or rather training drills to minimize the movement in offhand.
So I use various widths of tape on the wall. using holding drills.
First for vertical movement
Then horizontal
as I get better and can hold longer the tape gets narrower.
any other ideas out there?
Come on I know you rifle shooters have lots of Ideas lets hear some.

Dave

Okay, i think i misunderstood what the original poster was looking for in terms of training drills when i made my first post earlier. I think it would be helpful if you were more specific in terms of what type of problems the drills you are looking for are going to address. Hold characteristics, balance, sight picture, position break down, execution, follow through and a whole bunch of other things contribute to taking a good shot in standing. If we had more information about your issues we would be able to better address them.

Also knowing the level at which you are currently shooting would be good to know so we can provide you with the drills that are the most appropriate for your level.

Lastly at least in my opinion training drills and techniques are most useful in helping a shooter find flaws in their position. If you have a sway issue then that would lead you to a balance exercise which will hopefully lead you back to an overall balance problem and then to the root cause whether it be bad foot position, incorrect back bend, head position etc. Going back and refining your position to be the best that it can will limit the number and type of training drills you will need and also increase your scores. Books like "the ways of the rifle" are good for explaining in great detail the basics of building a solid standing position. Also taking a look at pictures of some of the best shooters in the world will also give you an idea of what a successful position looks like. Yes of course there are exceptions to the good position = good shooter rule on both sides, but for the most part, fundamentally sound positions lead to having a good hold and good performances.

waiting for more information.
ryan

Hi Ryan

Thanks for the reply. Your first post was very helpful and addressed the issue.

what I am looking for are drills to use as a training platform to improve various aspects of a position.
Such as dry firing to improve trigger control.
Balance board to improve balance.
Tape on the wall (Vertical and Horizontal) to improve on or lessen sway.
Holding to improve stamina.

you ask the level at wich I shoot?
Well just getting back into shooting after a number of years so basiclly starting over.
Beginning with offhand building a new position from scratch.
So looking for drills as a way to build and refine the position.
if that makes any sense.

I like your idea of using drills to find flaws in a position.
Something I need to give more thought to.
or perhaps you could expound on the idea?

Dave

Dave

To me it seems like you have a pretty solid idea on what you would like to solve with the drills, but i think it would be helpful if you were to take a different perspective on what training drills can really help you accomplish.

Like i mentioned before i believe that the purpose of training drills or training in general is to help identify flaws in your position. For the most part until you are competing at the very highest level the reason behind the majority of ones poor shots can be traced back to a position problem. What i mean by this is: there are only a very few and fortunate bunch of shooters who are have the hold and position capable of firing 60 10's in a row. In my opinion "top international level" is a shooter who is able to average scores of 594/395 + on a regular basis. These shooters are shooting 10's at a 90% rate or better. I believe to operate at this level not only in competition but in training as well ones mental focus and training level also need to be much higher than those who do not shoot at such a high level.

What i mean by all this is as one progresses through the different levels of shooting from beginner up to international your training drills should and will shift from ones that are meant to find large position issues (sway, relaxation, trigger control, etc) to ones who's purpose is much more focused on a particular part of a match or a position (stretching/relaxing a specific wrist muscle, number of breaths between rifle lift and shot execution, how to mentally manage first/last shot of match or final, etc).

Because of this i suggested that you take a step back and really work on the basics of your position. The use of lines on the wall to "see" your hold is a good idea and working with the lines will help your hold become smaller just because of hard work and muscle memory. But to be able to truly create a smaller hold you will need to find the root of the sway and vertical problems and fix them. The drill can only show you that you have an issue and point you in the right direction.

I utilize mirror training a lot and i like it. Go out and buy (if you don't have one) a tall mirror and put it up where you train. I got one from wal mart for 15 bucks and it is in my room at home. With this mirror you will be able to see your position from the outside and this will be helpful in taking a look at your arm and leg angles as well as head position and overall position break down over time. The mirror will allow you to take a look at the shooters who have solid basics and mimic them in your own position. Also while you shoot if for example your arm position feels good or bad you will be able to "see" what it looks like in the mirror and remember its positioning for the future.

Since you are starting over again i would suggest getting the basics down. Having a truly relaxed position and position balance. Believe me when you have these two components, finding the right execution to match is easy. For relaxation start at the bottom and work up. Feet, lower legs, upper legs, abs, back, shoulders, arms, neck. They should all be at a neutral state when you are in position. Same as balance when you are able to get relaxed and you have to "catch" yourself from falling then go and check which muscles you are using to stop your fall. make a change to a single part of your position and then see what difference it makes. A big part of getting things right is trail and error but always remember the effect of a certain change because the information will be useful in the long run.

Shooting without the coat and dry firing are great drills to help with these. Without a coat you really have to relax to get things to settle and you are able to feel where things go especially in your upper body. Dry firing allows you to focus on things other than the shot value. I find it hard to really work on something when all you really care about is the end result. With dry firing you have everything except the result so it helps in keeping ones focus on the task at hand whatever it may be.

When i am training at my maximum a typical training day would go something like: Dry fire without coat for 30 mins, dry fire with coat for match course 60 shots, then live fire 60-80 shots, then dry fire with no coat for 15 mins. With this set up it allowed the time and opportunity to work on the things i felt necessary still get my record shots in and stamina as well. if you do not have this sort of time available, please do not cut out everything except the live firing as i feel the other parts are the most important in raising ones level.

Of course getting the basics won't happen over night and depending on how often you train it may take a while. Utilize other parts of your day to think about shooting. Driving, in the shower, before you go to bed, these are all good times to take a minute or two every day to do this. I may only train 15-20 hours a week in the range but i spend many more hours during my day thinking about what my next move will be.

Hope all this makes some kind of sense
ryan

Ryan

Thanks again for your posts and point of view.
They gave me good food for thought. Your comments have me thinking that drills can serve mutiple purposes. like ingraining of muscle memory. muscle or mental conditioning,trigger control, also the ability to point out flaws in ones' position.

I think the best thing I got from your posts was that until one is shooting at a very high level, most lost shots are due to a position fault.

For the most part I agree with you on this.
Although I believe you can have the best of positions, but still loose points if your mind is not in the game.

So now I am trying to think along the lines of what a drill accomplishes and also what flaws if any (I am sure for me there are many) they point to.
Comments welcome.
Take care
Dave

This question is mainly for Ryan, but If anyone has an answer, please do post it... I've been watching this post for awhile, I found Ryan's posts very interesting. However, a question cropped up - when one does a drill such as the one set out by Ryan in his last post, what is one looking for? What kinds of results should one be searching for? For example, during dry-firing, when should one consider a shot as "dropped" (or a bad shot) or a good shot?

Also, I would like to get some tips on drills for triggering. Of lately I've been shooting groupings (3 shots to a bull, pull target only after executing all shots) and blank card (black, to avoid seeing my groupings).


Cheers NB

Nick_Burman wrote:For example, during dry-firing, when should one consider a shot as "dropped" (or a bad shot) or a good shot?

Cheers NB

The target is whatever element you choose it to be. It could be smooth trigger release, or follow through etc. You are looking to perfect the good technique so just grade yourself on % acheivement - i.e. follow through good 80% of the time. The only aspect of a bad shot you want to remember is the aspect of was it good or bad in terms of what you were training. At the end of the session you should review the whole session and assess whether you felt anything else had room for improvement. You can then choose the weaker elements for more work in future. And of course you must write everything down !

Rob.

For 50 foot smallbore all the little NPA changes give me a hard time. So every now and then when I'm training I get someone to take my targets and number the bulls in the most messed up order possible. This forces me to keep checking and perfecting my NPA and its fun to compare scores this way. I've even noticed that sometimes I will shoot a lot better this way because I'm focusing on the NPA more.

Dry firing is another training exercise that pretty much everyone knows about and it works very well. To practice for a prone English match I will get in position and stay in it for a good 30 minutes or so with out breaking position and dry fire the whole time. This helps me build up my endurance prone as well as my confidence.

Brian

Nick
I think the real purpose of dry firing is to have all parts of the shot which include: set up, relaxation, trigger control, execution, etc... but without the actual "shot." One of the keys to using dry firing exercises successfully is to be able to not count shots as 10's or 9's while doing the exercise. The purpose of this is to take your focus away from the shot values and put it toward what you are working whether it be execution, follow through, hold watching, etc.

In the beginning it will be hard not to think of certain shots as bad or lost. But over time and practice you will be able to keep your focus during dry firing exercises away from the shot value and on what you are working on.

I think one of the best things to work on during dry firing is ones follow through. Without the recoil and urge to check for the value of the shot you will be able to truly follow through and see what happens right at the moment of execution and the few seconds following. Keys being: staying relaxed through execution, maintaining constant sight picture and of course staying on the rifle for at least 1.5-2 seconds. If you work on follow through during dry firing for lets say 20-30 mins every training day, this will help transfer your improved follow through to live firing. And once your feel that your live fire follow through is sufficient then you can use dry firing to work on another aspect of the shot process.

Hope this answers your question.
ryan

Hi,
A few for standing: Can't do up and downs so with side to side targets, I have them alternate from one bull to the equivalent bull on the other target to train on NPA.
Another is to alternate standing shots with one shot supported on the off-hand stand and the next un-supported. Then they describe to me the difference in muscle use between the two. It makes them think about muscle relaxation and what muscles are really needed for standing.
Again for NPA, I have them go through three closed eye NPA checks then take the shot with their eyes closed. It convinces them that NPA is for real. One new shooter did better with her eyes closed.

Let your imagination loose.

Grant