TargetTalk

Kirmdog:

I started using the Speer 200 LSWC about 6 months ago for a 'soft' short line load. Neither my reloading press nor Pardini GT seems to like the waxy lube on most lead bullets, but the dry coating on the Speer works great. No problems at all loading and very little barrel leading.

Interestingly, the bullets in every box I've purchased all look like they chased a fart through a keg of nails with dings, gouges and flat spots everywhere. Accuracy has always been fine, though. Over 4.2 of Titegroup, it launches at about 750 fps from the 6" GT with 3" 50 yard groups the norm, but I really only use them for short line practice where they easily hold the X.

Keith

Zero bullets makes a good lead bullet I have heard. I have not tested them myself....maybe in time I will.

Zero does make a good bullet. I was using their 200 swaged SWC last Sunday with excellent results on target.

We would like to offer our assistance to those in need of accurate cast bullets. Please visit our website - I'm sure that you will find the caliber and style that you require. And, please do contact us if you have any questions. We'd be more than happy to supply you with the ultimate in accurate cast bullets!

http://dardascastbullets.webs.com/

We would also like to survey the users of TargetTalk as to how many use the .32 cal. wadcutter (98 grain). We may be interested in purchasing a mould set.

Matt Dardas
Dardas Cast Bullets
Dardas Shooter's Supply, Inc.

We would like to let everyone know that we will be producing the .32 wadcutter bevel base bullet in approximately 1 month. The order was placed today for the custom moulds and sizer dies (0.312", 0.313 and 0.314). You'll be able to specify your preferred sized diameter when ordering. And, if you prefer, you will be able to order 100 packs of each diameter to try prior to ordering large quantities. Please keep in mind that these bullets will be 100% inspected prior to packaging. We want to insure that you are receiving the ultimate cast bullet for match competition.

We'll be posting when updates become available.

Matt Dardas
Dardas Cast Bullets

Not to interrupt Matt's unpaid-for commercial message, but there is a huge quality difference between swaged vs. cast bullets.

Swaged bullets come off the line much more uniformly.

This creates a huge problem for cast bullet manufacturers; the "playing field" is tilted steeply against them.

For a cast bullet manufacturer to even hope to equal the quality of the swaging process, they must throw away 20-30 percent of all bullets made (not a big deal- just cull the top and bottom 1 or so standard deviation of weights and hardness numbers and toss them back into the pot. Oh yeah- and that will only get you in the ballpark, because you will still have seam and sprue issues. On second thought- no, cast bullets can never equal the uniformity of the swaging process. Sorry.)

Anyhow

Cast bullets are produced using an inherently (and significanlty) inferior manufacturing process.

Not an opinion- a verifiable fact.

Hi Steve, I do agree with all that you say about the superiority of swaged
bullets. However, are the cast bullets still capable of x-ring accurracy?
X-ring at 25 at yards...sure; at 50 yards, I dunno.
Tony G

Steve Swartz wrote:Not to interrupt Matt's unpaid-for commercial message, but there is a huge quality difference between swaged vs. cast bullets.

Swaged bullets come off the line much more uniformly.

This creates a huge problem for cast bullet manufacturers; the "playing field" is tilted steeply against them.

For a cast bullet manufacturer to even hope to equal the quality of the swaging process, they must throw away 20-30 percent of all bullets made (not a big deal- just cull the top and bottom 1 or so standard deviation of weights and hardness numbers and toss them back into the pot. Oh yeah- and that will only get you in the ballpark, because you will still have seam and sprue issues. On second thought- no, cast bullets can never equal the uniformity of the swaging process. Sorry.)

Anyhow

Cast bullets are produced using an inherently (and significanlty) inferior manufacturing process.

Not an opinion- a verifiable fact.

Steve,

To set the record straight, I asked permission from Scott to post in regards to polling and announcing the addition of the .32-98gr WCBB bullet line to solely offer help to those looking for a very high quality .32 cast wadcutter. Scott granted me permission to do that.

And to the contrary, the 'playing field' is not tilted steeply against us in particular. Our reject percentage depends on the style of bullet and is no where as high as you have quoted. All other factors remain constant (alloy, temperature, mould speed, air pressure, sprue location, and pour rate). A reject rate of 20-30% indicates that there is a problem in the process and needs to be corrected. We produce our bullets with automatic machines which eliminates the problems that are typically associated with hand casting.

I understand that everyone has their opinions and preferences of cast vs. swaged. And there will always be opinions. But the important thing to remember is don't kick it if you haven't tried them.

Matt Dardas
Dardas Cast Bullets

1. I never said cast bullets were not acceptable for your needs (whatever those may be; plinking, IPSC, etc) just that they could not easily be made as uniformly as swaged bullets

2. Matt permission or not it was still an advertisement, right?

3. Matt, without knowing what your reject standards are, a low reject rate is most likely explained by . . . having a better process? Having lower standards? Again, compared to other cast bullet manufacturers you may have ghte best cast bullets on the market. But being the best cast bullets and being the best bullets are two very different things.

Anyhow, cheap cast bullets at 25 yards are a very economical solution for hundreds (thousands) of shooters.

I don't dispute that one bit.

Steves opinion on cast bullets vs swaged is Steves opinion. I find both equally capable. Speaking primarily for 45 auto bullets that is. And by-passing 25yd use because even cast bullets with visable base defects will clean the 25yd target. I can only cite my shooting experience with hardcast like Lasercast and swaged like the old Star and Zero. They shoot the same for me.

The old Star bullets were great. Lots of us miss them and wish we had ordered a few hundred thousand heads before they closed their doors.

Rumor has it that Precision Delta bought some of Star's equipment, but I don't know what or how much expertise they got. I tried some of their early 185gr SWCHP bullets (2 yrs ago?) and they were terrible. I've heard that they made significant improvements but I've had no time to try again.

Neil at NSK (nsksales.com) is selling the Precision Delta bullets (I think) with a different lube. One of these days I'm going to order a thousand and try them out but I've had no time.

I like the Zero 200gr SWC and 185 SWCHP bullets. I have only done a little testing and found them to produce results similar to the Stars. I can't say if they are the same until I do some more testing, but they are not significantly worse. My dealing with Zero (www.rozedist.com) have always been excellent. They are good people (I have no connection, just a repeat customer).

I've tried a few cast bullets (but not Dardas') and have not got the same results as Star and Zero swaged bullets, even after inspecting for a clean base and consistent weight.

Steve Turner

"Anyhow, cheap cast bullets at 25 yards are a very economical solution for hundreds (thousands) of shooters.

I don't dispute that one bit."

I never said cast bullets weren't sufficient for 10-ring (or X-ring) accuracy from a rest at 25 yards against a BE target. If that's your only ciriteria then you will be fine shooting pea gravel if that's what you want.

(that's an exaggeration but ya know what I mean)

In any case, if yoiu choose to use cast bullets, and want to achieve near the same consistency as swaged bullets, yoiu have to performa a little QA before reloading:

1) Inspect all heads for external uniformity- no seams, evidence of sprue cutting, perfectly uniform bases, etc. Toss out any that don't look *perfect* as a minor surface imperfection is evidence of serious flaw.

2) Weigh and sort by weight in .1 gr (maximum) increments. 0.05 gr increments better. After weighing and sorting, you will have a "histogram" (bell shape) of bullets in categories.pick the largest batch (if sorting by .1 gr) or three largest batches (if sorting by 0.05 gr) and toss the rest.

3) Use the ones you tossed for training. Use the ones left over for matches.

Higher quality cast bullets will have a higher percentage of "keepers." Lower quality cast bullets will have a lower percentage of "keepers."

Try the same process on swaged bullets.

Steve Swartz wrote:"2) Weigh and sort by weight in .1 gr (maximum) increments. 0.05 gr increments better. After weighing and sorting, you will have a "histogram" (bell shape) of bullets in categories.pick the largest batch (if sorting by .1 gr) or three largest batches (if sorting by 0.05 gr) and toss the rest.

I agree with everything except this bit. Since the weight of the bullet is bound on the high end (it can't weigh more than if it had zero voids) you want to save the highest weight bullets. Lower weight bullets will have the same number of voids, but they may not be in the same location and as a result may not shoot the same. If you don't see a weight distribution with most at the highest end and less as you go to lower weight you have a bad batch of bullets.

The couple of times I have culled cast bullets, I found that most of the bullets were within a few tenths of a grain and the rest all were lower weight, which I used for practice.

I have done the same thing for Star, Zero and Precision Delta swaged bullets and found they all fall within a very small weight range. After weighing 100 or so bullets with no significant difference I gave up and stopped worrying about it.

Steve Turner

I agree that swaged bullets are more uniform and generally have superior dry lubes. Another quality swaged bullets have is there Brinell hardness is suited to the low pressure loads used in target guns. A formula that has proven it self to me in years of observation, 1422 x Brinell hardness = pressure in PSI. This allows the bullet base to upset and obturate, sealing the bore and eliminating gas cutting, a major cause of leading. Cast bullets run from about 16 to 22 Brinell, needing chamber pressures higher to obturate. Example ( 18 Brinell x 1422 = 25596 PSI ). Bullet casters use alloys that are suited for ease of volume casting and general use, not for low pressure target loads, swaged bullets run 10 to 12 Brinell, making them suit target loads in calibers like .32S&W, .38 Spl. Wadcutter and .45 ACP.

Gort

P.S. I have used Hornady swaged in .38 and .45 with great results for years.

SteveT:

Yep you are correct- the distribution is not really "normal" but will definitely be right-shifted; however, due to uniformity (or lack thereof) of liquid material composition and the molds used, there will still be some non stationary variation.

Still- accepting a +- 0.3 gr or more variation will put the uniformity of your heads way outside of what swaged typically produces.

Note I have never mentioned any particular brand- some cast bullet mfgrs are better than others. I'm talking about the casting process in general. If the casting company has a rigorous 100% QC check with high (tight) limits, they can produce very high quality- but it's an uphill battle for casting vs. swaging.

Penn Bullets 45 cal 200gr SWCBB the best I have tried so far.
http://www.pennbullets.com/index.html

As promised, we have received delivery and begun casting the .32 caliber - 98 grain wadcutters! Available sized diameters are 0.312", 0.313", and 0.314".

Matt
www.dardascastbullets.webs.com

Your story on mastercast is amazing. Try Space Coast in Melborne Florida. They only ship and bill when they have the bullets done. I use 60,000 bullets a year from them.

KIRMDOG,,, I SWAGE A 189 TO 190GR SWC-BB-HP... i HAVE HAD BOB MARVEL TEST THIS BULLET AND HE HAS BEEN GETTING 1.25 INCH 10 SHOT GROUPS AT FIFTY YARDS... I HOPE TO BE MAKING A BUSINESS WITH THIS BULLET SOON,,, GOOD SHOOTING!!

There are two bullet manufacturers named Mastercast.

One is in PA and one in Illinois. It's the one in Illinois that people have had trouble with. The owner posts on a few of the firearms forums seemingly for the sole purpose of harassing past customers.

I've done business with the PA Mastercast for several years and have never had any problems. They're very easy to deal with and offer good customer service.

It's a shame that they share the same name as I suspect that the reputation of the other Mastercast scares people away.