TargetTalk

Thanks to all who have posted to this thread. It's a great discussion. I have a few more thoughts to add, touching on targets, the social aspect of shooting, and increasing the number of smallbore participants.

With regard to the effect of the target on participation at the National Matches, I cannot see any positive effect coming of this change. It's not the target that's the problem, it's the wind and weather. It's no fun to shoot in a gale; it's no fun to shoot in the rain. Casual shooters - those who shoot for fun only and know they have only a minimal chance to win even a class or category award at Camp Perry - are going to stay home irrespective of the target. For these shooters, the Nationals take too long, cost too much (here I am speaking of the total cost in time and money related to traveling to northern Ohio) and are not enough fun.

That said, the National Matches are the NATIONAL MATCHES. The same small group of shooters will contend for the title, again irrespective of the target. I dare say that most would rather win the championship on points than on x-count, which is probably what will happen when the target is changed, so I don't think the elite shooters are going to welcome the change, either.

Finally, the biggest problem with smallbore participation is there are fewer smallbore shooters. There are probably half as many smallbore shooters now as there were in the 1970s. Changing the target is not going to change that. If we could grow participation at the local level, participation at the National Matches would take care of itself. Until the local numbers improve, however, changes like this are the equivalent of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The following may offend some out there but please understand it's meant in the true spirit of competition (which is what the National Championships are and should be):
If people are not going to Camp Perry anymore because it's windy and their scores are low as a result, they shouldn't be going in the first place! The targets are the same for everyone and those who are discouraged by low, wind driven scores should use that dissapointment as motivation to get better at their sport instead of being scared away....Coaches and parents need to impress that upon their young shooters instead of looking for easier matches. They need to teach their shooters that the center of the target is what you need to aim for and that no matter what size the scoring rings are, the center is always the same size.

Competitive Smallbore shooting is a challenge and one of the most difficult things to do well. Shooters need to embrace that challenge and embrace the challenge of shooting in the wind (especially at Camp Perry) and then they will succeed at their sport. Succeeding because the targets are easier is just a sorry example of shooters fooling themselves into thinking they're doing well...

Perhaps this is what's wrong with our country in general.....if something is too hard, just lower the standard so we can all feel good about ourselves.........ridiculous!

My feeling is that people aren't going to Camp Perry for the same reasons that they aren't going to local and regional matches: the sport has become too expensive. Too many parents are scared away by the pricetags on shooting equipment and simply won't make the investment when they know their kids may lose interest in a few months. Some kids are lucky and have clubs or schools that can share good equipment but then can't make the investment themselves when they get out of school....I know shooting smallbore has never been cheap but it's lately become too much of a rich man's sport and that is why I think attendance is down.....not the targets....

Yeah if they wanted to get more people maybe they could had lowered the entry fees a little. But the people who will like this are the ones that don't want to work for better scores. It's the same at my club everybody just wants to shoot the easy-going A-17 and not usas or A-36. These people never get better since they don't push themselves. People might think they're doing so much better the first year they shoot the different targets but will just find they're in the same rank area.

TomN wrote:If that is the reason - that conditions at Camp Perry are too difficult - then we are surely lost. Everybody shoots at the same target; everybody tries to hit the middle. Fire your shots, add up the score, the one with the most points wins. Deal with it.

verry nicely said

Matt: I agree with everything you said except that the cost is what keeps people out of the sport. I own and shoot equipment that is far beyong my abilities and is pricey. I have never met anyone who in getting into the sport was inclined to go into one of the outfitters and drop $5000 or so on new top of the line equipment. There are lots of good routes into the sport on lower cost but good stuff. Take for example the 1807 on gunbroker with sights for $899 and I have seen and bought others. Our Jr. club charges the kids $60 per year and that includes the use of pretty good entry level equipment. To contrast I recently signed my boys up for a semester of swimming and it cost me about $450. That is for about 3-4 months. Our jr program shoots all year on that $60. From what I know of other jr. programs I think you'd see similar costs. Sure as you get deeper into the sport it can get expensive but that can be managed if the buyer seeks to.

Maybe if they (Camp Perry & NRA) would make it easier to get better housing on site, and have a lot more vendors and other social things to occupy time after the matches. I hear that the big shotgun championship at Sparta Illinois has tons of vendors, etc. You need ways to keep people and families interested in spending their precious summer vacation time at the Natl matches. And if you haven't gone to Perry before, how on earth are you going to know to bring electric fans, curtains, fridge, grill, all sorts of household items just to make the place liveable, OR spend a fortune on motels and more $$ for gas to commute. It's rather daunting!

First of all - I must admit that I have NEVER attended Camp Perry, I hope to one day. I've fired far more rounds on the A-50 target and I really enjoy that target. Aside from that we ALL need to get over the idea that one TARGET or the other is MORE or LESS challenging than the other. It's the conditions that they are fired under that are MORE or LESS challenging, not the target!!! These targets have ALL of the most critical points in common -they are both nicely round :-), and they have the exact same center point - forget about the rings and the scores they are ALL relative.
Someone who is more anal than I could produce a formulae that would help compare and contrast these scores so everyone would feel better about how they shot -but really - who cares!

Now, having said that I'll add that higher scores are more likely on the A-50 target IF the international conditions for shooting on that target are maintained - well shielded from the elements mostly. Shoot the A-50 under typical (from what I'm told) Camp Perry conditions and EVERY ONE will be disappointed when compared to their performance under PROPER conditions for that target. Sorry, it's life!!!

The A-23 - from what little I can tell - is a close facsimile of the 50 foot (TQ1) gallery target - they are similar enough for me to say that they have some continuity relative to the distance fired. Since MOST (my opinion) juniors are brought up starting with this target it seems reasonable to suggest that the national championships should maintain some of that continuity - and use the A-23 target that we were brought into the sport with. For me it simply preserves a small portion of the tradition I started with.

Now, again, I am very fond of the international target. But I cannot imagine that our friends around the world are at all impressed with Camp Perry scores on the A-50 target - I know, who cares what they think. At the very least lets give ourselves the opportunity to compare apples with apples. If we intend to hold a National Championship on the A-50 target lets do it under the conditions that were intended - sheltered from the elements - legally.

In the mean time, I like to think of Camp Perry as a grand tradition - meant for the manner in which we were all (mostly I think) brought into this sport. If I happened to start with International equip I don't think I am at all handicapped shooting the A-23 target at Perry in mostly terrible conditions. I'd like to keep the older NRA shooters and their gear on the line with us, and I see no reason to have driven so many of them away (apparrently) simply because the target appears too challenging to them. International gear NEVER handicapped anyone, so fas as I can see. And over time, the presence of international style equipment will overshadow and replace the conventional stuff anyway. Again, it's the venue conditions that are really central to the choice of target - I think.

The real issue is what to do to find an appropriate venue for the A-50 target. And still call it a NATIONAL CHAMPIOJNSHIP!! I think this event could be held in any one of a number of smaller sheltered venues all across the country. And, I think, given time, it would be a VERY popular event. If the ENTIRE corp of US international shooting teams could make this a priority for attendence - the results would carry high meaning not just here but all around the world!!!

Mostly we need to get over ourselves on the overall design of these targets, relative to any degree of difficultly, they both have the same center point; and under the appropriate conditions lead to very meaningful results.

I feel that the A-23 is really intended for Perry, the A-50 for a seperate championship under appropriate conditions - thats all.

Dean

Dean, you have a point regarding the proper venue for the A-50 target but the fact is that we already have one at the USA Shooting Championships which are held on a sheltered range.

NRA 3-Position Outdoor is fired on the A-50 in regional and state championships as well as NRA approved local matches. It's the standard target for that course of fire. My feeling is that it should remain that target at Camp Perry.

Why change? Because it's windy? I think the windy conditions this year upset many competitors to the point that someone agreed to change the targets for next year. On average, however, Perry is not always that bad in terms of wind. It's challenging, yes, but then again that is part of the sport.

Further, shooters need to understand that score goals are not always realistic when the wind starts to blow at Perry. Performance should be the focus.

I agee with your point about too much focus on score - I've fired some terrible scores (hasn't everyone), but walked away very pleased with the way I've coped with whatever the challenges were. I've also had some wonderful socres that did not satisfy me in other ways, so your point is very well made and needs to be reinforced by coaches and mentors all across the board.

And I fully agree with your comment about wind -no gripes here -we all shoot under the same conditions -shoulder to shoulder.

I'd suggest that the change to the A-23 target ought to be carried right on through to the regional sectional and local match level. It's the only way that the Nationals maintians the continuity of the event. I mean if the change at the national level makes sense (I hear hugh groans here)- it ought to be consistent all up and down the line.

I simply feel that THE US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP for sentimental and traditional reasons OUGHT to be focused on a USA target. Now I know that there is merit in some international type standardization in the targets - but I still think the target most of us (USA) started with (those over 40 maybe ?) is the one derived from the TQ1 arrangement. I'd like to hear from some of our older competitors on the origin of the A-23 target. I'd bet it is unique to the good old USA - although Great Britain may have a target with similar structure. Honestly I don't really know....... If someone who knows the history would chime in we will all learn something................

I take no exceptions to your note on the venue for the USA Shooting National Championships - should have thought more clearly before posting earlier, you are correct of course. But perhaps that just serves my point too. The A-50 target has an appropriate venue and tradition all it's own, in Co Springs, a beautiful sheltered INDOOR range that is ideal for producing the kinds of scores that COULD be compared to international events the world over of similar design. It all fits perfectly. Of course, due to it's relative smaller following I'd love to see it move around a bit - but thats a seperate hot topic........

Forgive me, but is there a 4P national championship any more (really showing my ignorance here). If so then that is an appropriate use for the A-23 target too. And, I admit that the only sitting I shoot is Highpower....... But I would still say that the 3P venue at Perry is equally valid for the A-23 - and perhaps a spring board for participation in Col Springs on the A-50 target. Of course, you could hold the 3P and 4P right on top of one another, same A-23 target and all, just let the 3P shooters sit out (no pun intended) the sitting stage - thats all!!!

I'm perhaps a bit out of order with my comments since I have not participated in ANY national events in some years, so my "vote" is barely countable. If/when I get a chance to go to Perry, I'll be very happy to shoot whatever target they'll let me!!!!


Thanks for your thoughtful comments to my posting.

Well, i have calmed down about this somewhat. When I first saw it i was really fired up. Got some more related thoughts on it though.

Will it bring more shooters? I don't know. Most of the top shooters have their goals on going to the top international matches with Camp Perry being sortof a fun match. I think there is a possibility many of them will see no purpose in coming to Camp Perry to shoot this mutated match. I have spoken to one fellow who will be shooting in the 2008 olympics and said as much. If Camp Perry looses the top shooters then I see no purpose in it at all.

Smallbore position has changed since the matches used the A23 target. Over the years even NRA smallbore has become very closely aligned with international shooting. Just look at the clothing 95% of the shooters wear. This consistancy was very nice.

I think the belief that the loss in smallbore numbers is due to the change in targets is overly simplistic. Many things have been working against the sport in the last 25 years. Loss of ranges, loss of school shooting programs, loss of jr. shooting programs, politics, etc. What has happened in prone over the same time period? Have the numbers decreased (I really don't know)? If so why? They did not go to the A50 target?

The popular matches in the DC area that were shot on the A-23 target, weren't these on the NRA indoor range? I think some were but maybe not all (again I don't know). If so it seems to me a big part of the draw would be shooting on a 50m indoor range.

Last random thought is that to me this is much like many highschools these days. They want to graduate lots of kids and instead of teaching them to read, write, and figure they lower the standard and pass them and push them out the door.

It seems to me that this should have been put out for comment for a year.

I find it sad that a top athlete might feel that the national championships might be beneath him(her) simply because of the target choice. I think any number of us have attempted to suggest that one target or the other is NOT any more or less challenging than the other. I've been sort of hoping that this point would help us overcome this myth, but this doesn't seem to be the case. This athletes refusal to participate is every bit as poorly informed and reasoned as those athletes who decided to drop out as the A-50 target moved in........ they (apparrently) thought the target was too hard, and did'nt want to rise up to the supposed challenge - ended up sitting it out...........not the attitude we are looking for I think. Refusing to shoot the A-23 is NO DIFFERENT. No disprespect intended. In all honesty this athlete is missing an opportunity; and all over a target that has a ring structure that results in relatively higher scores.

As for causes of diminished participation - I think you are correct. There are too many to consider, and some (yes even the target change) may have had no impact at all. If there were some better way to quantify them, maybe we could come closer to finding the changes we truly need to make to improve things. Maybe we simply have to accept that the path we are on is not going to change. Like you I don't really think that changing the target is going to spark some miracle participation. I think the change is appropriate simply because that target is MOST consistent with our smallbore NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS heritage - thats all. I think it is fair to suggest that the mutation occured when the A-50 target replaced the A-23. This change is simply restoring a USA tradition - thats all.

As for dumbing down - I don't buy it. This suggests that the international TARGET is somehow MUCH more challenging that the conventional target. Now, I will conceed that the top US international shooters are likely going to shoot the top scores on the A-23 target. But I would expect them to shoot the top scores on ANY target!!! This is NOT a function of the target, it is a function of the training. Shooters involved in international events are generally more advanced shooters - period. The pool of shooters outside the US includes some really tough, highly trained people. To just aspire to meeting this challenge requires more effort - and the target used happens to be the A-50. The connection between the A-50 and higher level skills becomes ingrained, and this may be where some get the idea that the A-23 is beneath the international athlete. If international shooters stay away from Perry because they feel the target is too easy, then they are helping to dumb down our sport. They should show up, clean our clocks, and show us all just how well the A-23 can be shot. If someone stays away because they fear being beat by the international shooter, shame on them too - time to step it up and work a little harder cause it AIN'T the target folks, it's all about the shooter.

Dean

To answer a question posed earlier, there is a national 4P championship, but it is fired indoors on local ranges as part of the smallbore sectional program run by the NRA. Since indoor ranges are theoretically equal (at least as far as having constant lighting and no wind) the scores are theoretically comparable no matter where/when they are fired. They are fired on the A-17 target and winning scores are generally 798 - 800. The winners are typically determined by center shots.

Contrast this with the winner of the indoor 3P national championship. Everything is the same except the target (A-36) and the number of shots (120). Scores again approach possible (1200) but have not yet reached that value, and the winner is usually determined by points.

The point here is that an 800 with no center shots beats a 799 with 79 centers in the 4P match. The more discriminating A-36 target makes it theoretically more likely that the best shooter will win the 3P championship. In reality, the same small group of shooters win ALL the matches, but the A-36 target does create sepatation among the lower-level shooters. This can be good if you want to know who is better along among all shooters, but it is worse if you want to maximize the number of shooters who a the possibility of winning something, like a class or category award.

I think the target change is worth a try. Camp Perry 3-P has become a big junior match (approx. 70% juniors), combined with the Army team and a spattering of civilians.

The NRA is not in the business of "international" shooter development- that is USA Shooting's job. The NRA is for grassroots programs, yes?

The A-50 target was never designed to be shot at Camp Perry- period.

Suggest we change the 3-P regional system as well, to allow for A-23.

For those who compete at Perry, this is a WELCOME change. If you have never tried it, using the A-23 outdoor, well, try it. The best will still win, and everyone else will have fun trying. :)

This sport is supposed to be FUN, yes?

:)

Guest1000 wrote:I think the target change is worth a try. Camp Perry 3-P has become a big junior match (approx. 70% juniors), combined with the Army team and a spattering of civilians.

So what if the match has mostly juniors! After all, they are the future of the sport. The key is to KEEP them shooting after they advance from jr to open civilian. Do you have an issue with shooting with juniors? I hope not, as they numerically support smallbore at all levels.

The AMU usually has 10-12 shooters and the rest are civilians. That is not really a "spattering". If there are 300 shooters, that would equate to 210 juniors (70%), let's say 15 AMU (5%) and 75 (25%) adults (open civilians). This has been the trend for quite some time - and it has nothing to do with what target is hung at 50 meters for 3-position.

Guest1000 wrote:The A-50 target was never designed to be shot at Camp Perry- period..

To my knowledge, there has never been a case of a target designed for a specific rifle range. Targets are designed for the course of fire, not to compensate for a "tough" or "easy" range. Such logic is invalid as it does not reflect reality. Camp Perry is no different from any other range....some days it is easy and others it is really tough. There have been pleanty of 1140's and 1150's fired over the years at Camp Perry, but there is no mention of the great scores that have been accomplished.

No, the NRA is not only for grass roots programs...it is for shooters at all levels - conventional or international. To each their own...shoot whatever event you want...just keep shooting.

As for changing the 3-p regional system to the A23 as well...what purpose would that really serve? If the issue is just that Camp Perry is too windy for the A51, then ok, let the regionals use the A51 and then let's all just gather around in one big circle and have a group hug each morning before colors, hang a 300 yard target at 50 meters and have at it...... (Military shooter's involvement for the group hug is optional!) There is a reason that it is called COMPETITIVE shooting.

What everyone needs to take a step back and remember is that this switch to the A23 is an EXPERIMENT. Why would anyone go rushing in to change the entire structure of smallbore position shooting based upon ABSOLUTELY NOTHING???? There are no data points if this will increase attendance at Camp Perry - which is the supposed reason for this change AT THIS LOCATION ONLY.

Yes, I am personally opposed to the switch, but I will honor the decision of the smallbore committee to give this a try. HOWEVER, if there is no change to attendance at Camp Perry, then it should revert to the A51 after a two (2) year trial.

My REAL question is how many active position competitors actually lobbied the smallbore committee for this change? In addition, how long was this in the works? Until I saw a summary report on the committee meeting, I didn't hear a peep about this potential - but now real - change.

I just find it very ironic that prone shooters are trending towards metric targets while the NRA wants to make 3-p easier (at least at Camp Perry for now).

The real issue at hand is participation OVERALL in smallbore - and it starts with the person who stares back at 'ya in the mirror each morning. How many of you on this board have introduced a junior to the shooting sports? How many mentor a junior or coach a junior team?

If you are not recruiting juniors and mentoring, you are not part of the solution - YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

1813benny seems to have nailed this discussion with the comment that the real issue is declining participation at Perry. My educated guess having shot the National Championships off and on since 1974 is that the smallbore committee wants to make this target change in the hopes that more shooters will give it a try.

I have not shot Camp Perry since 1998. Next year I plan to shoot 3P and prone. I'm bringing my shooting buddy who was last there in 1998 with me as well as a new shooter in our club who will be thrilled to shoot the nationals. If everyone would bring somebody new or a returning shooter next year, the range could be overflowing, giving the NRA headaches in squadding. What a great problem to have!

Personally I have no problem shooting the A-50 in the wind. Everybody else on the line is fighting conditions at the same time. I suspect that my friend who really hasn't shot that much in years as well as the newer shooter won't mind firing at the A-23 with the bigger rings.

Is this a cream puff attitude to take instead of wanting to shoot a "real" target like they have for two decades or so at Perry? Of course the conventional , or "balloon" target as some people call it is not as challenging as the A-50. Scores will be a lot closer next year and some matches will be decided by X's. I doubt if anyone is going to come close to shooting 240 X's, and besides, tie breakers are always fun. Would you rather see a guy (or girl) pummel the field by 20 or 30 points? That's called utter domination, but it can also be boring. I'd rather see the excitement of two or three people battling it out neck to neck to the end.

I must admit that when I first heard this news I was shocked and couldn't believe the decision. I'm willing to give it a try if the result is more shooters showing up. As others have commented, Camp Perry has always been competitive, but is also a relaxed match and a lot of fun. It will never be the international team tryouts. There are other venues in the country that decide that team. The real kicker might be how is everyone going to shoot 20 quality shots standing in 30 minutes in Lake Erie wind? Maybe that is the real challenge for this target. Shoot centers, pound X's and you will go home a winner.

1813Benny did hit the general points that make this move to A-23 a reasonable choice to make, and judge the results over two years. Very well stated, and I would add my 2 cents.

Having taken junior teams to Camp Perry for the last two years, and judging their and their parents reaction to the experience, two things jump out.

1st is the technical equipment and cost of being competitive. Think of shooting jacket and pants, top of the line rifle, bloop tube, irising sights with filters, personal wind indicator, stands, scope, and $1500 a case Eley; the $5000. cost mentioned on this thread is very close to what it would cost to be competitve. Junior shooters either give up ("I can't shoot that well 'cause I don't have _____ -fill in the blank), or hound parents to get the next best thing to make them shoot those scores.

2nd is the performance vs scoring issue. As mentioned here, the difference in the top shooters and the rest of the field at Camp Perry is huge. It is difficult to encourage a junior shooter on their performance when they look at the score posting to find where they end up in the total listing.

If conversion to the a-23 will make scores closer, and more competitive, with less technical equipment, then it is a great idea. Will the same quality of shooter still win, probably. Will the matches be closer is scoring, and a truer reflection of a shooters performance, I think so.

Joe

Guest1000 wrote:...
The NRA is not in the business of "international" shooter development- that is USA Shooting's job. The NRA is for grassroots programs, yes?
:)

HI

I'll just quote the part I'm commenting on. Unfortunately for International shooting, the NRA is doing a fair job of building grassroots programs for USA shooting sports, Bullseye pistol, Action Pistol, Highpower Rifle, American Trap, American Skeet, and American Sporting Clays (not all NRA Programs). The split between the NRA and USA Shooting hasn't really helped our shooting sports in any way I can see. I can't shoot an international match of ANY type within 100 miles of Wichita KS that I'm aware of. With the exception of air rifle or air pistol, I don't have the equipment to do so either.

feel free to move this to a separate thread if you want to.

Mike
Wichita KS

I think there is a inddor match at Virginia each year and last i heard no one has ever fired a 1200 (A-23), even with scope. So we don't have to worry much about X's winning the match on the A-23 in 3-P- gotta get them there points first!

I like what the NRA is doing let's all support them for conventional shooting and USA Shooting for ISSF.

And to the person earlier- the A-50/51 was INDEED designed to be shot under ISSF-conditions... wind screens, seated massage chairs, air con. :)

let's all just gather around in one big circle and have a group hug each morning before colors

OK, listen....I'll shoot the target if I have to but I'm not huggin' anyone.

The single biggest change that I have seen in the competitive shooting sports over the last 46 years is the decline in fellowshop. In the past shooting events were also social events. Now days people show up shoot and shortly after the last round is fired they are gone and may have not even spoken to the shooter next to them.
As a child I use to visit my uncle and his family in Haggerstown Md and every Wednesday evening a group of familes would get together and have an indoor pistol or smallbore match and one of the best spagetti dinners you could imagine. To this day those folks still talk about the good times had by all but could probably not remember the scores they shot.
I used to hold three P and prone matches in central VA. I would incorparate a deliberate lunch break for an hour into the schedule. I had a lot of belly aching and moaning at first but over time people found that they enjoyed the fellowship.
If were are to busy to break bread with and to talk to one another a change of targets won't make any difference.
As far as keeping kids in the sport we need to remember what motivates most young folks and that is social interaction, that is the way life works. We need to build it in or lose them.
Owen