TargetTalk

Alex_c wrote: That's a lot of people left out by the action-pistol sports that would love International air, free, and sport that don't even know they're out there. International's more about quietude and concentration,....

Those are the people that are shooting NRA Bullseye. No, it's not the same, but it is similar. And someone just beginning in pistol is more likely to find a club shooting NRA BE than one shooting International

Fred Mannis wrote:Those are the people that are shooting NRA Bullseye. No, it's not the same, but it is similar. And someone just beginning in pistol is more likely to find a club shooting NRA BE than one shooting International

Isn't that the point though? Surely USA shooting should be looking for a presence in these clubs in order to give the shooters an option. Most of the problems in uptake lie in ignorance. You can't blame the shooters if they don't know there are alternatives.

Good point, NRA Bullseye is everywhere. And shooting the .22 part is a cheap way to do lots of matches.

1988 Tanieu Kiriakov - gold. Heh heh heh.

Mike M. wrote:The pistols may be reasonably priced, but the fast-turn targets aren't. RF bays, in particular, are scarcer than hen's teeth. I don't think there are more than a dozen in the country thhat are in working order.

Surely you've moved on from turning targets at this stage? Electronics should be the order of the day seeing as they've got so cheap and are far less prone to breakdown.

Suis-Ascor units at $20K for a bay!? Our club's budget couldn't handle a tenth of that sum.

Mike M. wrote:Suis-Ascor units at $20K for a bay!? Our club's budget couldn't handle a tenth of that sum.

Sius Ascor and Meyton are the most expensive units out there. They are not the only ones. Megalink, Spieth and Polytronic are far cheaper and just as good. Our club has 8 Megalink targets, all the control units and all the masks and software to run: 50m Pistol, 50m Target Rifle (Prone & 3P), 25m Standard Pistol, 25m Precision/Rapid, 25m Rapid, 10m Air Rifle and 10m Air Pistol for just €25,000.

That would be about $35,000.

Spieth would be about the same (though not as versatile) and Polytronic a little more expensive.

How did we pay for it? A bank loan, A Government grant and savings.

rrpc wrote:Our club has 8 Megalink targets, all the control units and all the masks and software to run: 50m Pistol, 50m Target Rifle (Prone & 3P), 25m Standard Pistol, 25m Precision/Rapid, 25m Rapid, 10m Air Rifle and 10m Air Pistol for just €25,000.

Out of interest, which Megalink targets are you using, or do you have a mixture. From what I can see neither the 4K187 nor the 4K300 are suitable for 25m or 50m pistol and the 4K560 isn't suitable for 10m rifle or pistol.

Am I missing something in their online information, is that information wrong or is their a system they are not showing.

I have yet to speak to a dis-satisfied Megalink user, either shooter or judge.

Lack of turning targets is not what's killing International pistol in the US.

Yes we could use more of them, but let's get real here - I managed to make the team in air and sport and to win nationals in sport the next year with no training on turning targets except at matches.

I trained at the OTC for the rapid fire stage of sport w/o turning targets.

Granted rapid-fire does take 5 targets, they at least have to be the right distance apart, and it takes training a lateral movement across them, but a determined athlete can set this up.

Most of international pistol is just setting up a 10m range, using a 50m rifle range for Free pistol, and for Sport pistol, working on precision and rapid fire stages, on targets that are at least about right.

I have to get around again to the original question, is USA shooting no longer funding pistol much, and is team selection getting even more subjective than it's been in the past?

David Levene wrote: Out of interest, which Megalink targets are you using, or do you have a mixture. From what I can see neither the 4K187 nor the 4K300 are suitable for 25m or 50m pistol and the 4K560 isn't suitable for 10m rifle or pistol.

Am I missing something in their online information, is that information wrong or is their a system they are not showing.

I have yet to speak to a dis-satisfied Megalink user, either shooter or judge.

No you're right David, it's the 4K560 we're using. They don't specify it for 10m because they are not looking for ISSF accreditation for it, but they've tested it and have Norwegian Federation approval for it which is good enough for us :)

Edit: From an email from Megalink:

Megalink wrote:The target 4K560 will never be tested for 10m by ISSF because the target is so big, but we have tested it in national test by the norwegian sport shooting federation and they have accepted the target for use on 10m air to 50m pistol targets. The target is also tested by ISSF for 50m rifle and pistol regarding pressicion.

And you can add us to the list of satisfied customers. Nothing is a problem to them, they implemented the NSRA 25 Yard target without any fuss and have been available on the phone or by email for any problems we encountered (mostly lack of understanding on our part).

Spares are cheap, sytem is faultless and very transportable (even the 4K560).

We still haven't learned everything yet, but it keeps answering every question we have had.

Alex_c wrote:Lack of turning targets is not what's killing International pistol in the US.

Yes we could use more of them, but let's get real here - I managed to make the team in air and sport and to win nationals in sport the next year with no training on turning targets except at matches.

I don't think anyone was stating that that was the problem, more like the lack of ranges being used for international.

Which leads to the last (and original) part of your post and that although I know nothing of selection in the US, I'd hazard a guess that lack of competitive shooters is forcing USA shooting to concentrate on the other sports.

Which brings me back to my original point which was that USA shooting should be trying to bring more clubs into the sport or failing that, individuals should be working on the ground to do the same thing.

It's the responsibility of everyone in the sport to ensure that it doesn't die.

No one on this thread has mentioned the new joint USAS-NRA Progressive Position Air Pistol Program. This is the second (third?) year of this program designed to get youngsters shooting AP before they are big enough to shoot conventional (unsupported) pistol. According to the latest issue of USAS News, attendance in the PPP event at the National Junior Olympic Air Pistol Championship was up 15% this year. So USAS (and NRA) are doing something to rejuvenate International pistol shooting. Won't help us in 2008, but hopefully will provide a much larger base from which to select future competitors.

I'd like to add that for the last decade or so there's been a big push to train US school kids (and anyone else interested) in robotics. There are whole companies like arrick robotics etc. devoted to hobby robotics. And magazines like SERVO etc.

That means even more tools to design and build turning target systems. It should not be too hard to make the motors etc bulletproof, just put that all below/behind an angled metal base.

Hey: Your not Alex Carter who was dislodged from the US team, are you?

dislodged how? and for what?

Mike M. wrote:The pistols may be reasonably priced, but the fast-turn targets aren't. RF bays, in particular, are scarcer than hen's teeth. I don't think there are more than a dozen in the country thhat are in working order.

And to top that part, I recall that RF bays cost a lot also. Our Bullseye rig for indoors was built out of parts about 15 years ago. If the controller goes we're screwed. Our outdoor rig locally was build in the 1950's and I think is controlled by hand. We COULD shoot international, but it would cost more and you don't go distinguished.

Mike
Wichita KS

As a matter of interest, how much typically do turning target bays cost?

Dislodged for being in the way of those with more money and "pull". Through irregular and probably illegal means, which I didn't have the money to hire lawyers for at the time, and I suffered a certain lack of guts because of this. It didn't help me (although it did help the regime running USA Shooting at the time) that my father had just died and yes, I'll admit it, I was really rather weakened by this.

I was not ejected from the team (as apparently His Buljungness was) but left because illegal conditions were placed on me that I saw would make training not really possible. I did shoot the 1996 Olympic trials to fulfill my obligations and was shocked to find myself not dead last because of the horrible scores I shot (no practice for about 6 months lol). I saw fellow athleted collapse in tears, talk a great line about their dear deceased daddy and how they had to win and then promptly get beaten by me w/o the help of my own dear deceased daddy (whome I miss very much) and so on. What a crock.

I also, since I had qualified to, shot the air rifle trials. I did that on my own dime and for fun. I guess I did OK, I got to say my farewells to a lot of nice rifle people, do a Nixon impersonation for Lones Wigger ("They won't have Carter to kick around, any more!") and do what shooting is supposed to be about - sportsmanship. My final shot in competition was a 10, after getting out of my jacket etc to pick up a pellet tray for a competitor who'd have experienced some physical pain in doing so herself. I got back into my stuff, got my point of aim back on target (remember no dry fires in competition) and the last shot was a 10. Could have been an 8 I guess, let's just say I didn't make finals against all those excellent shooters, I'd equaled my personal best in air rifle competition and it made for a good memory.

Shortly after this I sold my rifle stuff. I like rifle and I like rifle people but all that clothing is hard to get used to. And besides, we've got tons of great rifle shooters, it's pistol shooters we need. Since it's so easy to come up with a pistol and .22 or pistol and pellet combination that will shoot very very well, leaving the performance up to the shooter, and the relative cheapness of pistol shooting, it puzzles me that we don't have tons of good pistol shooters like we do in rifle and shotgun.

My platform in starting this thread is that selection for olympic teams in pistol has been more political and subjective than performance-oriented, and the US's placings have suffered quite a bit because of this.

Alex:

You state that your main point was that " . . . selection for olympic teams in pistol has been more political and subjective than performance-oriented, and the US's placings have suffered quite a bit because of this."

The point is perhaps "arguable;" with evidence and observations on both sides. For the sake of discussion, I will grant the argument in while.

Assuming it is true, how does it stack up against the "structural issues" like those previously mentioned?

More importantly, how does the phenomenon you describe tie in to and aggravate/contribute to the "structural issues?"

I can see how "politics" in the selection "process" for team membership, travel selection, etc. could negatively impact morale. But with a larger pool of "Near World Class" (540+ Free, 565+ Air) shooters, and a support system to help them get "over the top" (to include developing experience at big matches), wouldn't we also begin to see more "Truly World Class" shooters as well? Even with the inevitable human nature stuff that seems to make pursuing the dream harder than it sould be?

Sometimes Big Problems need Big Solutions?

Steve

If those of us who actually know what fundamentals are will do some work at the entry level and give shooters a chance to start without developing a vast repretior of error paterns as we all did, Perhaps this next generation can do better than we did. It only takes one shooter to win the gold, three to win them all. How many did we put on the line when Hulet 'Joe' Benner won gold ? Start off correctly , provide the things Russ has discussed and that are available at the USAMU and Colorado Springs. All is not lost. Reference Alex C Gary Anderson once remarked to me that a major problem was lawyers as it was so hard to clear a training spot for a up and coming shooter. Many who were showing little apptitude for avheiving world level scores were almost impossible to move out of the limited slots. The death you mentioned rendered you vulnerable to replacement. It aint fair but lifes a bitch. I am suggesting that if we miss our chance, train your replacement. Good Shooting Bill Horton

"How many did we put on the line when Hulet 'Joe' Benner won gold ?"

Huelet "Joe" Benner was in the Army, where there's some financial and especially political backup no matter how poor a background the shooter comes from. I've been trying to get back in since I realized I had the ability to get somewhere with olympic shooting, and I keep getting older just ahead of the age requirements - I was at the recruiter's door the morning after I heard about the latest age increase. I'm hoping they'll increase the age a bit more for Guard, so I can join them and then transfer hopefully to the regular army and thus given suitable shooting performance, the AMU. Having essentially the Commander of the Army as your "daddy" is a good way to have a chance at the Olympics if the only othing you have going for you is good international level scores.

"Start off correctly , provide the things Russ has discussed and that are available at the USAMU and Colorado Springs."

And remove the dirty politics!


"All is not lost. Reference Alex C Gary Anderson once remarked to me that a major problem was lawyers as it was so hard to clear a training spot for a up and coming shooter."

But we do have ranges, we do have lots of facilities and potential ones for 10 meters anyway, I believe a lot has been done to keep rifle as an NCAA sport, and NCAA rifle is strong right now. So, this is not hard to do.

"Many who were showing little apptitude for avheiving world level scores were almost impossible to move out of the limited slots."

One gal had a grandfather who put a LOT of money into um, er, the program. She could not NOT be on the team - we Ransom Rested a bunch of our guns and hers was shooting awful - she didn't care, she didn't even want to be on the team. She just kept on being put on. She finally took off for college and stopped showing up for team tryouts etc. So it's not been performance getting people shiny uniforms and trips around the country and even overseas....

"The death you mentioned rendered you vulnerable to replacement. It aint fair but lifes a bitch."

No, it sucks because USA shooting at least was at that time, crooked and corrupt. I can't think of any other Olympic National Governing Body that would treat an athlete that way and most of them would have found themselves overrun with hot and cold running lawyers right away. With most of them, it would have gotten press coverage. It takes a pistol shooter to consider a low blow like that to be expectable from their team and NGB.

"I am suggesting that if we miss our chance, train your replacement. Good Shooting."

When I was on the team I was free with advice, since I figured there are no secrets - I can tell another shooter all I know, and I'm still going to go to the match and beat 'em. In the rare case a shooter can take what I say, what others say, what they learn on their own, and put the WORK into it and beat me, great - because they're going to get there anyway with my help or not. That's a rifle attitude. I doubt any of the rifle people were big on keeping secrets, since there really aren't any, and keeping "secret" knowledge or tricks is a sign of the kind of insecurity that loses matches.

I am suggesting that if we want to win in pistol, we need a rifle or shotgun coach - one who's used to winning. The running target coach we have right now has apparently been doing a better job than the pistol coach we had before. We need someone who comes from a winning end of the sport with winning attitudes and who has come up himself/herself from a background of fairness, sportsmanship, impartiality, and good performance, not good-enough-to-get-by. They can look in a book to see how to hold a pistol, the gun does not matter so much, the mindset does.