TargetTalk

And who would finance a new project by a very small company? With a market potential market of some hundred pistols in a few years? The whole world keeps complaining about Cesare Morini's habit of testing his pistols in public, and then an even smaller and less funded company like FAS should come up with something new? And why? The 607 is a very good standard pistol, and nobody's come up with something definitely better - my 607, non-perfect as it is, easily "outscores" any SSP I've seen in the muzzle jump department, has a great trigger, good grip fitting potential and 100% reliability. And RF is dead anyway, so why bother?

I'm not so sure about the .22 short, I really don't think that there is anything valuable left to shoot with the old RF pistols. Otherwise, why would the ammo factories stop producing match grade .22 short? And - the 601 can't be adapted to .22lr, the mag well is not long enough. The whole frame'd have to be changed.

I don't know that RF is dead. Certainly as an ISSF sport it's still very well supported, manufacturers like Pardini and Walther are still investing in it. Granted the SSP is a compromise between SP and RF, but I wouldn't say it's dead.

I figure that there are some .22 short RF pistols still in the manufacturing and distribution pipeline...but none in manufacturing.

That being said, there are a fair number of Walther OSPs fitted with GSP trigger units being used for NRA Bullseye. Reports are that it works OK if you don't ask it to shoot 50 yards.

Personally, I think the dust has yet to settle. The idea of going to a single pistol type for rapid, standard, and women's sport pistol is sound...but the design of this universal gun has yet to be finalized.

And it may well never be. My experience (which is not terribly extensive, to be sure) has been that RF favors a center of gravity that is further back than the other designs. On the other hand, it may (hopefully will) be possible for a pistol to be designed that uses different weight sets to put the balance where it is needed for each event.

As far as I can see from watching ISSF TV, Ralf Schumann carries a fair bit of weight on the muzzle of his Pardini, which normally has its CoG around the trigger.

As far as I can see from watching ISSF TV, Ralf Schumann carries a fair bit of weight on the muzzle of his Pardini, which normally has its CoG around the trigger.

rrpc wrote:As far as I can see from watching ISSF TV, Ralf Schumann carries a fair bit of weight on the muzzle of his Pardini, which normally has its CoG around the trigger.

Ralf Schumann is probably training for several hours each day, every day.

He has the strength and technique to control the required raise and subsequent horizontal movement of that brick, allowing the mass to dampen the recoil.

I would be amazed if there are many sub-elite shooters who could handle it.

Tycho wrote:Cut off the original rearsight slightly behind the vertical screw, mount the Morini - et voila. But don't ask me which version of the Morini sight I have on my one, can't keep them apart. Easy operation, not exactly drop in, but definitely no rocket science.

Did you do it yourself Tycho?

It sounds like one of the conversions that Viktor Odermatt (Odermatt & Ruess) does to the 607. His revised barrel fixing system gives a much stiffer gun than the original FAS clamping lever. I've only watched him at work for a couple of hours but was quite impressed.

It's 30 min from my home to Viktor's shop, so why should I do it myself :-)

And we got sidetracked where.....?

Fozzy357 wrote:And we got sidetracked where.....?

That's what happens on TT I'm afraid, we branch out in different directions. I would have thought that most people with a view on the SSP have already expressed it.

David Levene wrote: Ralf Schumann is probably training for several hours each day, every day.

He has the strength and technique to control the required raise and subsequent horizontal movement of that brick, allowing the mass to dampen the recoil.

I would be amazed if there are many sub-elite shooters who could handle it.

You make him sound like Superman! After all, he's only been using the 'brick' since the new regulations came along. Before that he had compensators and every whole thing to minimise the recoil for him.

He's had to modify the pistol to get back to the recoil characteristics of the .22 short, so it's a compromise that others starting off don't have to take on.

Having said that, he uses it very effectively. Didn't he break the World Cup final record in Munich this year?

Fozzy357 wrote:And we got sidetracked where.....?

My fault Fozzy. I remarked that the SSP was designed as an allround solution for the ISSF regs and to crossover the .22 disciplines. Tycho (I think) then brought up the FAS as having the same characteristics.

rrpc wrote:You make him sound like Superman!

Not Superman, just (able to be) extremely dedicated and putting in levels of training that few would enjoy. That amount of training lets you do things differently.

rrpc wrote:After all, he's only been using the 'brick' since the new regulations came along.

The "new" regulations aren't so new any more. They came into force in January 2005 but it's a fair bet that top shooters were training with suitable guns before that.

David Levene wrote:The "new" regulations aren't so new any more. They came into force in January 2005 but it's a fair bet that top shooters were training with suitable guns before that.

32 months isn't much time when set against a career spanning 30 years!

In fact, didn't Schumann have a great deal of trouble getting to grips with the new regs and didn't win a World Cup until 2006?

Sorry that sounds wrong, but for a guy like Schumann, winning World Cups is normality!

We think the "brick" has vertical dampeners in it, similar to those Renault used in Formula 1 and which were banned there. With all due respect to his fitness, I can't imagine that anyone could shoot that thing if it were a solid mass. And he probably wouldn't show it off this way if it were solid - he could achieve 1400gr by making the barrel shroud from tungsten, and nobody'd be any the wiser.

It's actually quite "funny" that Ralf took so long to get to grips with the new rules - and he's far away even now from the dominance he had for years with the .22 short - as the Germans were those pushing hardest for the continuation of the 8/6/4 rhythm. There were quite a lot of voices who wanted 10/8/6, but they were yelled down. Now look at who's winning the RF comps... I think RF is dead, because the target of getting more people to shoot RF was totally missed - it wasn't a question of being able to afford the hardware, but a question of mindset. It would have been easier for beginners with the 10/8/6 - and who cares if the world's top ten shoot 585 or 595? I know the ISSF had been complaining about the scores, but as long as they accept those of the guys lying on their bellies for 60 shots...

As to the capture of the thread - I think it was unilaterally clear that the SSP is not what it claims to be, not what it should be, and not want people want to spend their money on. So, as that is settled... :-)

rrpc wrote:In fact, didn't Schumann have a great deal of trouble getting to grips with the new regs and didn't win a World Cup until 2006?

If it took him that long to get used to the brick, what chance would "mere mortals" training 3 times a week have :-(

As you commented though, he's not doing too badly with it now ;-)

My point is that sub-elite shooters should not just copy what the "professionals" are doing or using. Their training (quantity, quality, intensity and history) makes them different.

Tycho wrote:We think the "brick" has vertical dampeners in it, similar to those Renault used in Formula 1 and which were banned there. With all due respect to his fitness, I can't imagine that anyone could shoot that thing if it were a solid mass. And he probably wouldn't show it off this way if it were solid - he could achieve 1400gr by making the barrel shroud from tungsten, and nobody'd be any the wiser.

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't those the same things Pardini use in the SP only horizontally? and presumably legal.

but as long as they accept those of the guys lying on their bellies for 60 shots...

Hey! easy there, I'm one of those guys and it's not as easy as it looks!

As to the capture of the thread - I think it was unilaterally clear that the SSP is not what it claims to be, not what it should be, and not want people want to spend their money on. So, as that is settled... :-)

So it seems.... for the moment.

David Levene wrote:My point is that sub-elite shooters should not just copy what the "professionals" are doing or using. Their training (quantity, quality, intensity and history) makes them different.

I think that was my point too :) I said that others starting in the sport now, shouldn't have to modify their pistols to bring them back in time, but to learn how to use the new ones effectively.

I wrote:He's had to modify the pistol to get back to the recoil characteristics of the .22 short, so it's a compromise that others starting off don't have to take on.