TargetTalk

Once upon a time:
(January 2006) The great posts recently that dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot, either physical or mental technique. You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you. One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want". After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. - Jack H

And Brian Zins comment:
"Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRCET" - BRIAN

Today: To follow up on EdH dialogue, "But is it a distraction from your path, or the new fork you must take to reach your next milestone?"

Just what is your "milestone"? Along the path to shootin' reely good, there will be many forks to take, stones to stumble on, milestones reached and then discarded. Learning a lesson from each and every fork, path, or stumble should lead you to an understanding of what the accurate pistol shot is all about. Many things will be discarded but You will not discard "sight alignment", "trigger control" and a "realization" that what counts happens at the gun. Plus there will be a measure of "hold as steady as you can", keep it simple, and don't think too much.

EdH: "For each of us, the important exercise is to find the proper path through all the distractions. Can we do that without first knowing where we want to go?"

"Knowing where we want to go" is the "realization" above that must be discovered.

How does foot placement help me align my sights? It doesn't.

How does sight alignment help me place my feet? Now there is a better question that does have an answer.

Jack:

In my not so humble opinion, repeated over and over again, much to the irritation of many:

The *only* thing you need to do is keep the sights perfectly aligned while dropping the hammer perfectly.

*EVERYTHING* else (grip, stance, shot process, etc. etc.) exists *ONLY* to support that moment of truth; the last 200 milliseconds when your subconscious "fire control system" tells the finger to break the sear at the exact moment ahead of time before the perectly aligned sights end up in the aiming area.

All else is BULLSHIT!

Welcome aboard.

Steve Swartz

Lots of extra definitions/explanations for all of that. It's in the historical record.

Steve, your discription of the perfect shot is also the discription of a perfect jerk. and Jack, remember Gunny Zins is a marine. Marines dont think, They aren't allowed to do that. Now ,back to Steve. You seem to insist that others explain things to your satisfaction, so please explain what happens in the five to ten seconds before the 200 m/s you describe so often. I am tryung to say I can shoot a ten the way Ed Hall describes the process but cannot using your description of it. Any help would be appreciated. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Steve
I agree, the time tested saying is sight alignment and trigger control. But how do you effectively accomplish this perfect sight alignment and trigger control thing?

Jack:

There's a ton of discussion on this in the group; and indeedm, my somewhat simplistic description is just the tip of the iceberg of course.

But it bears repeating.

Mainly because a lot of devbeloping shooters get wrapped up in seeking "the perfect grip" . . . never really understanding, or losing sight of, just what makes one grip more "perfect" than another!

1. Perfect alignment during release.

2. Perfect release.

Two simple things. Now we have all the layers underneath! To understand how teh pieces fit, we must first identfy the pieces in their appropriate roles.

First Step:

What do we mean by 1. and 2. in the first place?

Second Step:

How do all the other elements (stance, grip, breathing, shot plan, happy thoughts, physical focus, mental focus, etc. etc. etc.) *directly tie in to 1. and 2. above?

Third Step:

How do we "Bettermize" our perfromance of the behavioral/physical tasks involved in perfecting 1. and 2. above through training?

Interested in hearing everone else's opinion (you too Bill- still waiting to hear how a perfect rtrigger release is the same thing as a "jerk").


So let's get down to it- what are the proper definitions of 1. and 2. above?

Steve Swartz

(I have the time, now that training involving my shooting arm is out of the question for the next several months!)

I ask how you get there from here to 200m/s and all I get is more questions. Steve If you dont know the answer, as a previous post mentioned , perhaps you need a good coach. Your written discription of how you shoot the perfect shot ie; As the gun moves toward perfect sight allignment and into your best hold area the trigger finger magically fires the shot is also the discription of the clasical jerk. I cant shoot a ten using your method [Paraphrased somewhat] I can shoot a ten very much like Zins does, Blankenship and Hershel Anderson did, TD Smith and Frank Green also shot about the way Ed Hall discribes the process. How do you describe the perfect trigger manupulation and how did you train to acccomplish it? Good Shooting Bill Horton

How to hold the pistol to shoot a great shot is like asking how to hold the pencil to write great poetry.

Jack, I shot 2600 by simply applying the fundamentals most of the time. I shot 2650 by moving beyond the fundamentals, and simplifing the mental process and cooridnating them with the physical acts necessary to fire the shot. I am able to teach my process and have another shooter emulate my process with reasonable success. Thats my issue with Steve. I can't shoot with what he is trying to describe and I sure can't teach anyone else to shoot using his approach. I'm hoping to understand it well enough to be able to use it to shoot that ten. And maybe teach someone else to do the same . Good Shooting Bill Horton

I'm sure your comments are quite helpful to many folks, Bill.

Don't quit on us.

Clarify your point and press the discussion forward!

Steve Swartz

Oh Well!!

Jack, I'm willing to bet you have never written any great poetry or that if you have, you've never shot a great shot. The two seem to me to be mutially exclusive. I believe a person can be taught to shoot great shots but not taught to write great poetry.But, As Steve says "I may be wrong" however let us please stick to how we do this pistol shooting business.

Great poetry - definitely not
Shooting dialogue - not so hot
Once in a while - a great shot
World champion - don't give it a thought
Shooting - I enjoy it a lot.

In an attempt to further distill the essential difference between shooting and writing poetry, allow me to point out that writing poetry is a creative process -- shooting isn't.

Allow me to further point out that the definition of 'great' poetry is subjective -- the definition of a '10' isn't.

Lastly, allow me to point out the fundamental difference between rhyme and poetry. Poetry as an art form that uses language for its aesthetic and evocative qualities. Rhyme is the repetition of similar or identical sounds in two or more different words. It is frequently used in poetry, but it isn't essential for poetry to use rhyme, and a rhyme isn't necessarily poetic -- Jack's rhyme being a case in point. The determination of whether or not that particular rhyme could be called 'poetic' is once again subjective, and has nothing to do with shooting 10's.

As far as what happens in the last 200 ms, you either accelerate the motion of the muzzle or you don't. When I shoot, I accelerate the muzzle during the last 200 ms. I can see it when I use Scatt. I accelerate more with the .45 than I do with the .22, and I accelerate more with the .22 than I do with the air pistol. And my scores with the .45 are considerably worse than my scores with the .22.

The essential differences between the .45 and the .22 are grip angle, trigger weight and design of the trigger (1-stage vs. 2 stage, in-line movement vs. rotation). The essential difference between the .22 and the air pistol is trigger weight. Since I'm dry-firing when I use Scatt, anticipation of recoil isn't an issue.

Trigger weight appears to be the essential issue. The use of greater force to activate the trigger on the .45 results in greater force being applied as well to making the muzzle do things it shouldn't.

The other thing is that I so far haven't been able to feel the difference between when I'm about to accelerate the muzzle a lot vs. a little, or not at all. By the time it actually happens, it's too late to stop it. And there is nothing 'subjective' about the result.

So I need to work on doing a better job of pressing the trigger. How do I do that? What do I practice? Riddles don't help. So far, descriptions of the process by great shooters like Blankenship and Zins haven't helped either -- or maybe they have, just not enough -- yet. Is there one essential thing to focus on that will accelerate the learning process?

Al B.

Ed;

Thanks for the comments. And I hope your demons are at bay for a while.

Yes, I (apparently the "Hollow Barrel that I am") probably hoped too much that people would get past the details and to the simplicity of all. (See my subsequent post wherein I reviewed that Hugo did not even say he had a single comfortable foot position.) But although the post of the movie dialogue may not have been consciously used, I can't help but notice the recent posts.

Ah, so many layers and so little time to explore. Let's see.

Trying to describe something that you just DO, and reverting to poetry, which, by the way, was a VERY technically correct description of a golf swing. And it did not resort to something like "stand here, do this, head down, etc". It was a description of the actions and feelings that are required. Can any of you do that with a shot process for a new shooter?

Buying lots of things which a beginner thinks may be useful to guage and measure (well, there must be some truths about the golf swing illustrated by these devices --and that you'd help me sort through it).

Listening to explainations and not exactly understanding what the other person was trying to say. Trying to process a whole new language and concept that had previously only been perceved from outside the sport.

Asking for other alternatives when the explaination doesn't make sense. (Grip it and rip it comes to mind).

Getting someone to understand the pleasure of a successful shot and the burning desire to do it again.

Yes, I'd suggest that a good review of this scene might result in some potential refinement of the "Hollow Barrel" concept. Then again, everybody it entitled to their own opinion.

So, to the recent posts. I don't know if you would call it great poetry, but yes I did write some that people read, and I can shoot a 10 and I can tell people how I do it. It's just that maybe other people either can't relate to the words that I use, can't understand the concepts that I am trying to explain or just don't believe that all the stuff that's really important takes place at the gun, yet.

Ah,...but there's always hope.

Cecil Rhodes

Al:

In the spirit of trying to compromise between the "do it this way because I said so" and "let's internalize all the reasons why we should do it this way" schools of thought on teaching, allow me to offer the following on "Trigger Control:"

Dry fire against a neutral/blank surface. Support your arm while you do so, so you can concentrate EXCLUSIVELY on perfecting the manipulation of the trigger without distractions. Some principles:

1) use iron sights
2) focus on maintaining perfect sight alignment before, during, and after hammer fall
3) Concentrate on trigger/hand/wrist FEEL during the exercise

Objective: CONSISTENT, smooth, rapid application of pressure to the trigger in a way (at an angle) that results in NO MOVEMENT of the front sight- relative to rear sight- during hammer fall.

Behavior: Develop the "feel" of the trigger finger relative to the rest of the grip that results in the perfect hammer fall. Look for this concept- when you are pressing the trigger correctly, it will require certain behaviors with respect to the gripping fingers and the entire hand/wrist system . . . the hand and wrist msut "merge" into the wood and metal of the grip to provide a solid unit. The trigger finger must operate wholly independently- you must be able to "pump" the finger up against the trigger without moving the sight alignement. Pump the trigger up to (not over) the release point- feel where the release point is- and establish teh ability to pump up to- then through- sear release without disturbing sight alignment.

Training: Practice the behavior and NOTICE the difference between a *perfect* behavior, and an *imperfect* behavior. MEMORIZE the look, smell, taste, feel of the behaviors that result in perfect execution- this will include characteristics of grip and finger position on trigger most directly, but will also include level of forearm tension, alignment of head and eye to front sight, etc. PAY ATTENTION to BEHAVIORS i.e. things that you are doing that affect the level of PERFECTION in the execution of the release of the trigger. Train on performing with a higher level of perfection during each session- track your progress using a Perfect/Imperfect check sheet for each attempt.

When you can put the gun on and drop the hammer perfectly the first time reliably . . . repeat 10,000 times.

Start with the most important gun to you. That could be a .45 (harder to master) or a Morini Electronic AP (easier to achieve perfection, but harder to translate to other guns). Imperfections will be more obvious in a gun with a higher Pre-release to release force dropoff.

Steve Swartz

You tell us how its done! Still dont know how you inniate the movement but may have an idea. You mention a training system that begins with the pistol being held still and the finger moving while you focus on the perfectly alligned sights. Is the focus and concentration on sights the signal for the trigger finger to move? You will find on one of my previous posts that I mentioned trying this but never got it reliable enough to use in competition. I only only tried it 5,000 times. Good Shooting when you complete your recovery. Bill Horton l

All:

A reminder of the last two years of (actually productive) discussion might be in order.

Discussed ad nauseum- it's the two "different" (not really) ways of looking at the last 200 ms- trigger drives sights vs. sights drive trigger "personal perspective."

Seems to me that whichever perspective works for you is fine- we're talking about THE SAME THING.

For Type A folks, start moving the trigger and concentrate on alignment as the shot breaks.

For Part II folks, keep the sights aligned and relax- the trigger will break as the aligned sights wobble closer to the perfect sight picture.

Some folks, it HELPS to think of it as "have your trigger perfected, and concentrate on the sights." Other folks get more usefulness out of thinking of it as "have your sights perfected, and concentrate on the trigger."

Discussed in detail already- there does seem to be a pattern of "bullseye guys think to move trigger, drive sights" and "international shooters seem to think align sights, to move trigger."

(Aside: Or maybe it's a slow fire/sustained fire thing? Or a dot sight/iron sights thing? You can get a Distinguished badge (irons) without really mastering the irons- as is proven every year with sub-2550 shooters earning distinguished badges. So what? A clue might be found in how the USMC trains world class shooters . . . )

I'm pretty much at the tomato/tomahto point. Some folks swear by Version I, some folks swear by Part B. All world class shooters, from a performance perspective. Whatever helps the individual shooter.

From a teaching/training perspective, it might be a useful thing to be able to explain the issue FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES . . . do ya think? Coaches? Ever find it a useful skill to be able to relate to different people with different examples/explanations/persectives?

IMNSHO- you need to perfect your trigger AND your alignment. If for whatever personal reason a shooter finds success through believing the key is to do one first then the other, who am I to disagree? I read the advice of the Old Great Ones as supporting my contention. Other folks read the same exact words and interpret it 180 degree opposite.

Maybe- if you go back and read the words of the Old Great Ones, you will find they all say the same thing:

CONCENTRATE ON JUST ONE SIMPLE THING: SIGHT ALIGNMENT AND TRIGGER CONTROL!

(insert tongue in cheek, sarcastic etc. smiley faces in abundance here)

Steve Swartz

Fascinating thread fellows. There's a lot here to ponder about while I am sunning it in the South Seas for a couple of weeks.

Perhaps in AP and FP there is no poetry in the perfect shot but in rapidfire, the perfect string is a lot of poetry with beat and rhythm overlaying the techniques described by Steve.
I think that over a couple of years Steve has won me over as a convert to his thinking about it all being about perfect alignment and smooth release in those last few milliseconds.

I have spent hours pondering other things to give me the edge - no caffeine, no lifting with my right arm on the day of a match, special shooting shoes, an iris on my shooting glasses, tinted glasses, more weight on the pistol, less weight etc etc. The list goes on and on and in the end I think the only thing that matters is concentrating on the front sight, accepting your wobble while maintaining the sight picture and bang.

I wonder how poor Hugo is going. He started this thread asking about where to put his feet! As a newcomer to the sport he's probably been blown out of the water.

Great point Colin- I'm hoping that by now Hugo realizes he shouldn't really be worrying aobut his feet that much; therer are much more important things to square away first.

(e.g.- how can you tell which foot position is "better" if you don't know what "better" is? What is the purpose of the position of the feet with respect to delivering a perfect shot? *Not* rhetorical questions . . . Socratic maybe, but not rhetorical.)

Steve Swartz

I found a comment on a BE forum that expounded a slight change in the verbage we are using . To wit; Sight allignment and trigger control are essential. Stance ,position , natural point of aim , breath control, grip ,the gun and ammo selection are all fundamental. I think I like the concept. It , at the least it emphasises the correct issues while the fundamentals as we are using them spread the emphasis equally . None of us seem to think that where we put our feet approaches the importance of sight allignment and trigger control. I am satisfied that the change in terminology is valid and worth while. I suspect Steve will agree . How about it Ed ,Jack,and the rest of the posters. Good Shooting Bill Horton