TargetTalk

Geeze Louise "Guest" what got under your bonnet?

For what it's worth, and since I can't send this message one-one, I guess it will be public.

First, I am not "full of resentment" or "have to beat the other guy"

"Mr. Swartz has exposed what is ailing the majority of pistol shooters - being consumed with the 'I have to beat him syndrome". Maybe if he had been focusing on his fundementals he wouldn't have such resentment."

Wrong on both points.

A. I was giving Russ "props" in the first place (for his performance and great improvement over the last year or so- as indicated by his rankings etc.), not jealous at all or driven to "beat him" (or anyone other than my own performance . . . what a silly idea; that someone else's good scores somehow make my scores worse?!?); and

B. I have "called him out" on his business promotion in this forum in the past. Perhaps I read too much into it this time- his web site has indeed blossomed of late with a lot of helpful info but is still the front-end of his commercial enterprise. I don't have a problem with Rouslan the person, the competitor, etc.- and I trust he doesn't have a personality conflict with me. I was just claiming- perhaps incorrectly (see above) that his initial post pointing back to his "training academy" was at least "in the gray area" if not "out of bounds." So my second comment was certainly "on message" and not at all related to his skills. Just the issue of embedding a "come-on" to generate hits on a commercial web site.

What makes this forum unique is that it doesn't fill up with advertisements, promotions, etc. overt or otherwise, thanks to our hosts policies and forum charter. Thank goodness Scott hasn't sold out to the pop-ups and embedded marketing graphics. I for one would like to keep it that way- it would be a tragedy if this forum turned into another "Wal-Mart" site.

And no, nobody appointed me "content police" I understand that. We do have to be somewhat self-policing though.

I am indeed happy that his website now has a lot more content. I have logged on ocasionally and he is to be commended for providing more valuable content now and less overt sales pitch. His current site is much more in keeping with the collaborative ideal that I personally espouse; not that anyone should care what I think frankly. Just throwing my $0.02 in, in this public forum. Feel free to disagree.

Oh and I recognize that I personally haven't been much help inthis forum lately. Glad to see some others step up to the plate- Including Russ, even with a commercial enterprise to sell- and I will apologize in advance for disagreeing with any of you! (ref "holding gun still" thread)

Finally

Anyone who knows me also knows that 1) I am generally a pretty happy camper with a positive attitude and a helpful outlook to others; and 2) I have always espoused that we are each competing against our own imperfections, and that we should help each other "for the love of the game."

Sheesh.

Steve Swartz

Steve, I can totally relate to your sentiment when I see blatant advertisement disguised as content, and that also was my initial reaction to the article.

But on the second thought, if it helps Russ' business prosper and expand and attract more people to the sport of shooting - thats a good thing after all.

You know what would be great? If USAshooting had a "FIND A COACH" section linked from the front page where coaches (or just people willing to coach) would provide their credentials, locations and contact info so other shooters could find them. And perhaps a possibility for registered people to leave feedback for coaches a-la amazon/ebay.

“That’s a good thing after all.”

As Alex said it is good thing after all.
I can add some more good things…
Price for the class is essential element of education process! In the first emotional way it is looks like I broke some rules. By doing this I made experiment and I will never forfeit this way!
Why?
1.Price making clear decision for the student to take extra step, extra mile!
2. To change some thing for a good reason.
3.To help the student to make decision with his new adjusted goal; how far he can go now with his performance.
4. No self doubt, no excuses, only one-way…. forward!

Price is good for your coach too! Why?
1.He can put this money to advertisement. It will helps him to recruit more interested and motivated athletes.
2. It will cut out unmotivated students….
3.This is great sign of support what your coach doing! This is support our sport, our movement, our freedom, our entrepreneurship! Without money we can do nothing!
Thank you!
Russ

For the last year I recruited new athletes who came from ground zero level to the 2007 National Ranking positions: #1 & #18.
I think it is not bad sign as a new creative coaching approach after all!
Can we make extra money in USA to pay for the class?
This is question of selection process!
So far, due to the new opportunity for me to participate on National level I can’t spend too much time any more for new students. So do not worry about it too much!

Just wondering Steve

Is this you?

http://www.coba.unt.edu/peoplepics/150/Swartz_Steve.jpg


Bob

Bob:

Yep that's me- still in "Air Force" mode vis a vis haircut and clean shaven. After a couple of years in retirement as a Kollej Perfesser at UNT I look more like Ed Hall did when he first retired . . . (beard shaggy hair etc.).

Course Ed's taller, better looking, and makes whole lot more sense . . .

Steve

(p.s. back to message- call me a communist but I think we should use this forum to toss out ideas and have a discussion without crass commercialism- or competitive "gotcha-ism-" spoiling the Purity Of This Noble Calling . . . =8^ . . . cue folk music and aromatherapy)

Communist approach.... I did it too :) Not working well model :(

http://www.midwestshootingacademy.com/new1/DSC00379.jpg

This is picture of two athletes who took lessons last summer 2006. They have same pistols IZH-46M, and same coaching attention.

Communist approach & Capitalist approach:
One of them paid nothing (Communist approach). Free admittance ;)
(Diatlov, Dmitri ) He is #171 by USAS 2007 Ranking in Men's Air Pistol
Capitalist approach:
Another one (Brutman, Mike) paid asking price. He is #18 today by USAS 2007 Ranking in Men's Air Pistol.

Summary:
So, if I'll wish you success, I will ask you to pay!
Sorry for inconvenience, by breaking your comfort level. :(
Core of American culture is success and individualism. Success very often related to the money, so easy way to respect value of success is start to respect value of time and money. My personal opinion is: American culture is perfect model to succeed in such individual sport as Olympic Style Target shooting in USA!
Russ

. . . so if Scotty really wants to help us improve our shooting, he should charge us to log on to this forum . . .

Steve

(Hmmm- maybe I should put a coin-operated lockout system on my gun- and charge myself for each shot! $1.00 per shot, with ten cents per point rebated for score!)

Yesterday you clamed yourself as a communist.... What happen?
With forum it is different story..... It can be paid by USAS, and guys from upper part of this page: "in partnership with:"
Also I sold some items here and I can pay some money for this good forum development. Money is simple way to appreciate value.... And lot lot of people can do the same.

By the way we all greatly Appreciate Scott Pilkington's Contribution!

Thank you, Scott!!!!!
Russ

"improve our shooting....."

To really improve our shooting or kind of improve our shooting....
Are you talking about Recreational Shooting or International level shooters?
Too many details.....

I agree with Russ regarding the payment for coaching or learning or buying your first car.

When growing up I had friends and people I knew that had cars given to them, had their college education totally paid for. For the most part they never seemed to appreciate them as much as the people who had to pay for their own car or education or at least part of it.

Its easier to place value on something you pay for, if you pay a coach for his coaching you're far more likely to take his advice and work hard at it. If its free coaching you might do some of the stuff when you feel like it or do none of it.

Steve being in the Airf Force you paid for your coaching it wasn't free you gave soemthing of value for it. Look at how many of the good shooters come from the military and all pay for their coaching with probably the most valuable asset they have, that being their own time.

As for Russ's post I didn't find it blatantly commerical, I never really looked any further till you guys brought it up. I don't see anyone getting upset everytime someone say to go to Larry's to buy a Paradini (which really is direct competition with Scott), last I saw Scott doesn't offer any coaching.

Richard H wrote:As for Russ's post I didn't find it blatantly commerical, I never really looked any further till you guys brought it up.

Like Steve I got very upset with Russ's original posts, which seem years ago now, as they were blatant advertising.

He seems to have now cut out the "hard sell" and I found his recent posts to be perfectly acceptable, along with being interesting and thought provoking.

Yes, my first appearance at this forum was rude. I accept it. And I'm really sorry about it! I also sent my personal apology to Scott and Steve several month ago. If I hurt some one feeling too, I'm sorry again!
Ruslan

"There is nothing either good or bad
but thinking makes it so."
William Shakespeare

Steve Swartz wrote:. . . so if Scotty really wants to help us improve our shooting, he should charge us to log on to this forum . . .

Steve

(Hmmm- maybe I should put a coin-operated lockout system on my gun- and charge myself for each shot! $1.00 per shot, with ten cents per point rebated for score!)

Your resentment is showing.

Russ wrote: Another one (... ...) paid asking price. He is #18 today by USAS 2007 Ranking in Men's Air Pistol.

If the above is a correlation, what is the 'correlatum'? I mean why and how from money he get points?

scerir wrote:

Russ wrote: Another one (... ...) paid asking price. He is #18 today by USAS 2007 Ranking in Men's Air Pistol.

If the above is a correlation, what is the 'correlatum'? I mean why and how from money he get points?

Richarrd got the point : " When growing up I had friends and people I knew that had cars given to them, had their college education totally paid for. For the most part they never seemed to appreciate them as much as the people who had to pay for their own car or education or at least part of it.

Its easier to place value on something you pay for, if you pay a coach for his coaching you're far more likely to take his advice and work hard at it. If its free coaching you might do some of the stuff when you feel like it or do none of it."

My class is optional. I do not belong to any club in my area, no such clubs:(. I do not making living on this money. I use them to make our sport more interesting to other people- advertisment. My sources of time and money are very limited, so I do not have to many options.... Currently I'm working 10 hours a day 5 days a week at my first job. I have family, two boys, and wife....
I do practice some-times ;). I hope I'll have more time and money to accomplish what I like in Olympic style pistol shooting as ah athlet and as a coach!
Russ

scerir wrote:I mean why and how from money he get points?

Scerir,

I believe Russ is making the case that in general people put more value on things for which they must pay. Here, specifically, one of the 2 students paid for his coaching and the other didn't. The one who paid is ranked higher, allegedly because he valued his coaching more and therefore worked harder at his sport.

This is a classic logical fallacy: to take a broadly true generality and use it to explain a specific event that has many other contributing factors. As often-frustrated lovers of this sport, we know the time and dedication it takes to do well. Yet we do it anyway. Would any of us work harder at it just because we paid someone for coaching? Possibly, possibly not. But we can be sure that the added effort alone would not begin to take us from a 171 ranking to an 18 ranking.

I'm not objecting to Russ charging for his coaching, but I find this particular claim/reasoning to be ludicrous. IMHO of course.

FredB

Fred wrote:

scerir wrote:I mean why and how from money he get points?

Scerir,

I believe Russ is making the case that in general people put more value on things for which they must pay. Here, specifically, one of the 2 students paid for his coaching and the other didn't. The one who paid is ranked higher, allegedly because he valued his coaching more and therefore worked harder at his sport.

This is a classic logical fallacy: to take a broadly true generality and use it to explain a specific event that has many other contributing factors. As often-frustrated lovers of this sport, we know the time and dedication it takes to do well. Yet we do it anyway. Would any of us work harder at it just because we paid someone for coaching? Possibly, possibly not. But we can be sure that the added effort alone would not begin to take us from a 171 ranking to an 18 ranking.

I'm not objecting to Russ charging for his coaching, but I find this particular claim/reasoning to be ludicrous. IMHO of course.

FredB

No it is not all. As is my time limited I can't service to any one who wish to work with me personally, so I cut some of who not able to pay... It is sounds bad,:( I understand it.) My class is symbol of choice. Our life is optional... some one driving Aston Martin, some one ford Escort, but we do not judge people by what they are driving, where they live, what watches are they wearing what his assets? Are we do?

Is this forum about shooting or one up man ship. I give a hoot less about the sourse of new and different concepts. I also could care less about how someone reacts to being beaten by another shooter in any specific match unless the match happens to be one I'm competing in. My own reaction has been pretty extreme in a few instanses,but I got oover it and went back to training. Occasionally The SOB that beat me gave me the small bit of information I needed to keep from loosing the next time we met on the range. Its not smart to ignore good information because it is comming from someone you detest.Take it and beat him with it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Also, I have lot of different points to prove my statement. Each athlete who chose my service and drove over the country to work with me even for limited amount of hours did well after all. If I can, I will bring to our competitive stage lot of guys and girls with level of proficiency to compete successfully.
Simple charging money to the class does not make a big difference; you have to choose carefully to whom you have to pay for.... By reading this forum I have some names in my head, to work with whom will be very beneficial to the highly motivated athlete.

2650 Plus wrote:Is this forum about shooting or one up man ship. I give a hoot less about the sourse of new and different concepts. I also could care less about how someone reacts to being beaten by another shooter in any specific match unless the match happens to be one I'm competing in. My own reaction has been pretty extreme in a few instanses,but I got oover it and went back to training. Occasionally The SOB that beat me gave me the small bit of information I needed to keep from loosing the next time we met on the range. Its not smart to ignore good information because it is comming from someone you detest.Take it and beat him with it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Also, I agree with this statement too. For this gentlemen this source of information as TT is perfectly fit for his needs, it wouldn’t be necessary to him to make this journey and to pay some one extra over his shooting club fee.
Russ