TargetTalk

When you internalize the visualization of a shot during the process of delivering the shot your vision is degraded by the distraction. Is this what you are saying? Sounds right to me, and reinforces the necessity of having the rigorus organized thought process I've been propounding. And the problem is that no matter how successful I and others may have been using an active thought process we may still be proven wrong. That will be when someone shoots 2681, Sets a new free oistol world record, exceedes the current record with ar, ditto sp ect Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:When you internalize the visualization of a shot during the process of delivering the shot your vision is degraded by the distraction. Is this what you are saying?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Daydreaming is an extended version of this. If you've ever had the experience of daydreaming while you are driving, only to come back to reality when you hit the shoulder of the road, it's the same kind of thing. As long as the internal thought has a visual component, it will momentarily disrupt your vision -- not a good thing for shooting.

Regards,

Al B.

I just found a posting that is probably only of interest to me. James mcNally's sons, John and Ken are both listed on the training centers rooster. Check usas competitor list.

mmmm, some issues are lack of common understanding.

daydreaming is using your imagination, as is visualisation. ie going internal as well

if you hit the shoulder of the road, this is probably a micro sleep, very dangerous if driving, micro sleep not possible in competition!

but it does raise an example you can use your imagination with your eyes open, and perform a task, in this case something totally different.
to expand on this, playing some slow music, day dreaming, you may find yourself slowing down, play something with an up tempo, fast beat, and you may be getting a ticket.
point being the affect of what we imagine has on what we are doing.


steve, many people think of nothing all day (non verbal), and do it well. but dont confuse that with a moron, as these people are defenatly not.
but that is a different subject

this is part of the problem explaining things, and then looking at translations etc as well. if something is translated into empty mind, not thinking etc etc, you need to understand what they mean, more than what they are saying, as it doesnt translate properly, and this is often the statement you get.

what is thinking?
if it is verbal thought alone (talking in your head) then the statement is correct, but it leaves alot out.
I put all thought under thinking, and then break it up into the type of thinking.
maybe this is wrong, but it is easier to understand.

so when using your imagination (see above explanation) it could be said to have an empty mind etc.
it should of translated to no verbal thought. but then they would have to explain imagination.

you can use your imagination in lots of different ways.
just remember, your brain is a big black box, and it is such an unchartered area.

some of the symptoms of using your imagination.
trans like state(deep)
daydreaming(not deep)
interuption of sight, putting one on top of the other, or slightly different start time, so visual sight not clear, dont confuse with blurry.
even to the point of not actually looking at the sights directly
(and just for steve) the reverse is also possible, but in this situation you can watch the sights so intently, you can enlarge them.
in the "zone"(english)
empty mind (russia)(zin)
void (china)
HA (ed?)

and many more, but that takes much more explaining than the ones above, as they would have to be in much more detail.

So I have talked all over the place re imagination, but still not discussed
"how" to use it. I have touched on it in earlier posts.
the best way is to reinforce the pathways to the zone, rather than the actual "how"
most of you have a shot plan that will allow you to get in the zone at times, when you do, you need to be aware of the feeling you have, that is the easiest way of going back there.
once you know this feeling, you then can be taught easier ways of finding it.
If you dont know what to look for, you wont find it even if it is right in front of you.



I have not read the russian coach (russ?) explanation.
so I might miss the mark

so here goes, in your black box you have lots little pathways, some you dont use, you loose over time. the ones you use alot, increase in number.

if you dont use your imagination, some dont. (my guess is if you tested lots emo kids, you would find this to be typical) then you will loose the pathway for it. it is conceivable with the right stimulus (tv, music, video games etc) you stop using your imagination.
but,
I beleive you can rebuild these pathways with help and instruction to enable full use of your imagination.
there are many pathways from that statement.
benifits to sport is only one.
as a child, imagination is very active, but you are taught to supress it. sometimes to the point you never use it. in these people, more work is required, but for those who never gave it up, it is much easier.

Bill, why do you make the assumtion that the current world records etc were not acheived using ones imagination?
If you know what you are looking for, people have been training this technique for a very long time, just not in english.

it has taken me a long time to work it out, ed is not that far off doing it himself. but in saying that, he may never find it! it is at his fingertips.
as it was mine, actually, it wasnt till I stopped looking, that I had any progress after getting stuck for a number of years.
I was looking for a missing piece of the puzzle.
wasnt till I threw that puzzle out, that I realised I had the wrong one to start with.

Not reading a great deal of other peoples work, probably helped.

So does any of this make any sense?


imho

bryan

Bryan the points you make are facinating. But I'm not smart enough to use the information and shoot a ten.As I've been saying That Marine gunny sergeant starts the trigger moving first. The Russian coach posted on Pilkins says start the finder moving first . Steve allows his finger to move without thought.[first]. I start the trigger finger moving first. This leaves the mind free to deal with perfecting sight sllighment before the shot fires. Oh yes, can you prove me wrong about the records issue? Good shooting Bill Horton

thanks bill,
my understanding is to take up the first stage, and some, depending on first stage weight, "first", then the shot process. this only leaves 20% of trigger weight to deal with.
This is the portion I think you are talking about, during the shot process, it is slowly taken up till it fires, not pulled.

so not treat the whole weight like a rolling trigger, or am I missunderstanding something?

I dont think about firing the shot either. I take up first stage like you would lift the gun, without thinking about it. then complete the shot process, gun goes off without thinking about it.


I am also still trying to get my trigger right, this is holding me back the most at the moment.
I am looking at trying to add more weight to the first stage on ap.
and reducing first stage travel on the std gun, but mainly because of rapid.
even back to a single stage!
any thoughts on that?

bill, you have shot for so long that way, I wouldnt suggest changing. it is a lot of work to make it what you fall back on, not go back to what you are doing now if under pressure.

yes, can prove records, just ask one of them.
but there are exeptions, like yourself.
and interpretting what they say, as many dont quite know what they are doing. but know what they do.




imho

bryan

bryan wrote:daydreaming is using your imagination, as is visualisation. ie going internal as well

if you hit the shoulder of the road, this is probably a micro sleep, very dangerous if driving, micro sleep not possible in competition!
bryan

Bryan,

Daydreaming and microsleep are fundamentally different phenomena. In the case of daydreaming, you are awake and active, just not paying attention to what is going on around you. With microsleep, your brain actually switches into a diffferent mode, where it's not concious in the normal sense, and where it doesn't process any external input.

The phnomenon I'm talking about is more similar to daydreaming, except much shorter in duration. You are acutely aware of what you are doing, how your stance feels, whether or not your wrist is locked, the feel of your finger on the trigger, your breathing and how long you've been holding your breath, your sight alignment.

Then, you form an image in your mind of breaking the perfect shot -- what it feels like, what it sounds like, and what you would see with the sights. And suddenly, you are temporarily no longer processing external information.

But, that external information is providing feedback about the stability of your stance, your wrist lock-up and your sight alignment. If you do this right as you break the shot, then you are essentially shooting blind. It's the same as blinking as you break the shot.

When you read about Zen, they talk about emptying your mind, etc. What they are talking about is what some psychologists refer to as 'up-time', i.e., a state where your conciousness is focused externally, on interacting with your environment, rather than internally, reflecting about interacting with your environment, etc.

In this case, you should be focusing on sight alignment as you break the shot. There's no need to make it any more complicated than that.

Regards,

Al B.

al b thats some good points.

I would normally look at someone shoot, talk to them, finding a common understanding, and then work from there.
I have always had to work with the shooters understanding, not theres to mine. but it is all good.

In trying to cover all bases, and as many terms that seemed relevant, I probably have over complicated things.
there are many veiws of the same thing. I was trying to pull it all together, might think about it and try again.

there was no intention of comparing daydreaming to a micro sleep, was pointing out if you hit the shoulder, it is unlikely you were still daydreaming, likely you had shifted to a micro sleep.

your other comments are very good, you are discribing going in and out of different levels of concentration for you. you are using your imagination to visualise, then shift into the zone for the shot. all good.

you like most, like to stay internal, so might be unsure thinking you need to be doing something else.

if you learn to stay in the zone, rather than go in/out, you can start to enter more trans like states. this helps shoot long strings of tens, as it is hard to accept them going in and out.

When you read about Zen, they talk about emptying your mind, etc. What they are talking about is what some psychologists refer to as 'up-time', i.e., a state where your conciousness is focused externally, on interacting with your environment, rather than internally, reflecting about interacting with your environment, etc.

the reference to zen and up time is good, this is one aspect of using your imagination, a percentage of shooters would find this useful. but not many.
we are all individual, some like external, some like internal, but it is the same process. labelling it as "up time/external" is really discribing the perceived effects on some athletes. esp. with active sports, not so much with sports like shooting.
people that go external never forget, but most people that stay internal, dont realise they are doing it.

In this case, you should be focusing on sight alignment as you break the shot. There's no need to make it any more complicated than that.

this can be done internally, or externally, and so far not had to many shooters do it this way, maybe it is typical of pistol shooting!

I tried it there(thanks steve), but personally dont like it there, doesnt mean it is not the best place though.

imho

bryan

just reread last few posts. not quite right.

al b, some of what I said may appear conflicting, the reason is the whole process is not explained, re-imagination.

the terms internal, and external are very specific to your imagination.
so it may appear to contradict itself.

If I spend some time to try to explain in detail what we are doing with our imagination, it will all make more sense. I hope!

I only need 2 words to discribe it, but it wouldnt make any sense without a lot of learning about your imagination. I have tried to discuss with proffessionals, but more worried they might send round a team of guys in white coats. they just dont get it!

if I had a phd, I could just write a paper, and submit, jobs done!

I originally thought some of the content was lost in translation to english, but maybe it was never there in the first place.
that would explain the poor translation.


imho

bryan

Bryan, In response to a note about trigger mechanics, Jim Clark, one of our top gunsmiths until his death once showed me some high speed fotos showing how the finger seemed to hesitate just a moment at the end of the first stage of a two stage trigger And that the hesitation disapeared with a single stage. This was domonstrated in a sustained fire stage.Remember that this happened years ago and there may be more recent work on the subject. You might try to contact John Mc Nally at the usas training center. If you like,mention my name. Jims father shot one of clarks guns for years. And now back to thinking/visulizing. The language makes it difficult to express these concepts as you have indicated. Let me suggest something Take a look at two top level smallbore and air rifle books. The best part to me was many pictures with explanations ,another sourse of good information. In addition to the AMU manuals. I understand that there is much information about the internal position that should apply. One is' Air rifle shooting'' the other is' Way of the rifle'' Good Shooting Bill Horton

Steve I Think we just said the same thing.ie. The mind is cleared of all other issues to free it to deal with perfecting sight allignment. How we get the gun to fire is the last conflict. Or is it ? Good shooting Bill Horton

alb wrote:...
When you read about Zen, they talk about emptying your mind, etc. What they are talking about is what some psychologists refer to as 'up-time', i.e., a state where your conciousness is focused externally, on interacting with your environment, rather than internally, reflecting about interacting with your environment, etc...

Who would these psychologists be?

I found a reference to NLP - but up-time/down-time is surely not psychological mainstream lingo
(http://www.stevenaitchison.co.uk/blog/2 ... /#comments)

A more convincing offering (regarding attention-related issues) you would find here
http://www.umassmed.edu/uploadedFiles/2 ... ulness.pdf

When it comes to reading/talking about zen: It is all too easy to mistake the finger pointing to the moon with the moon itself - as a German saying reads. The point is: nothing beats first-hand experience.

The beginning line in this thread was from 2650plus: "the Chinese practice what they call the void".
An often heard joke among shooters:
The famous shooter is asked about the secret behind his results. He says "I align the sights properly and release the shot without disturbance." The disappointed reaction "This we already know." His answer: "yes, you know but I do.."

BTW:
If I have understood the earlier mentioned "fudoshin" correctly, Takuan Soho's essay (from the 17th century) on the unmovable mind is contained here "The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman"

gone practising

Axel

when I was 11, I listened to the reply of a world champion when asked how he shot so well, his reply was he consistently shot 610 in training!
although one could easily dismiss this statement, maybe he did do this?

when in the zone, it could in fact be described as avoid of thought.

yes, the artical on zen and shooting could be interpretted differently, but it was the references to the immovable mind, in the context of the artical that was out of place.
after reading through the translation you left a link to, it is obvious I was wrong about zen, but not the artical I first commented on,as this left out some very critical information, which changes the meaning.

the instructions are for fighting, not shooting. but much of it still applies.
many key principles are not suitable for target shooting.

the letters are very good, then probably the translation bit again, not making it easy to understand the concept. It did point out reading alone is not understanding
what these letters are saying is very much in line with what I am saying, but for shooting, and a difference in terms of reference/wording.


when I read someone using the terms up time, internal, externel in the context used, I see someone trying to comprehend some of the more basic symptoms of using ones imagination.

imho

bryan

I truly don't know beans about what I'm about to send so expect to find that out for sure in the next few minutes. The five senses are constantly sending signals to the brein , and that busy little device checks all these bit of information out , discards most as routine ie not important others as needing more interest and a very few as essential . In other words the mind is constantly jumping around with almost no concious control. It just deals with what the senses send it. Some of us do not believe we shoot that way. My personal experiance has led me to believe that I must control my mental processes and direct my thinking to what I am doing and have the thought processes support the activity I am involved in. Maybe thats why its so hard. I am using my mind in a way that it was not designed to work. But my mind became more prefecient at what I was trying to mak it do with practice and training And increasing scores support that idea. Good shooting Bill Horton

Hi bryan,

bryan wrote:..
the references to the immovable mind, in the context of the artical that was out of place...the letters are very good, then probably the translation bit again, not making it easy to understand the concept. It did point out reading alone is not understanding..

I believe us to be on the same side here - and this is how I wanted it to be understood in the first place.

The Italians have a wonderful word-play : Traduttore traditore. It means "The translator is a deceiver".

If I understand it correctly, zen focuses on the now and one cannot really expect that the NOW of hundreds of years ago has the same meaning in nowadays terms - possibly just as a far cry. And then the translation into some languages a couple of times...


best regards

Axel

My references to 'uptime' and 'downtime' were an effort to 'westernize' what I've read about zen, i.e., being 'in the moment', without ego, etc. In other words, directing your attention externally, to the 'here and now', rather than flashing on an image of perfect sight alignment or the perfect trigger press, or any other image that has the potential to temporarily disrupt your vision -- what Bryan refers to as imagination.

I can't cite specific pshycologists for the 'uptime' and 'downtime' references, although I'm sure I've seen it in a number of sources -- years ago. In fact, it's possible that one of those sources may have been Jon Grinder -- one of the founders of NLP, before it was corrupted by Tony Robbins.

In any event, I shot poorly in my bullseye league Monday night, shooting several fliers. I was a victim of my own bad advise, i.e., focusing on the sight last, rather than on my trigger press. After reading and applying what was said in the SCATT article that someone posted a link to, I shot MUCH better in practice last night.

I suspect that zen is such a confusing concept in part due to language and cultural differences. In this application I suspect that ultimately it comes down to nothing more complicated than what the Nike commercial says, "Just do it!" Or, to paraphrase Buddy Ryan, one-time coach of the Philadelphia Eagles, "Just shoot the damn gun!" Of course, it's a little more complicated than that.

Regards,

Al B.

The first step is just to get the idea. Think about it until you can see a way that it will improve your performance. Figure out a way to train that includes the new idea. Dry fire and see if the potential for improvement is there. If you are still convinced that you are on the right track , go to the range and test the concept for at least two weeks of intensive training. Look at the last days score. Can you identify distinct improvement. Next practice for at least a week or as long as it takes to stabilize the technique. Go to a match . Use the new process and see if the new technique holds up under match pressure. And now you know Good shooting Bill Horton

you guys have been busy.

axel,
thank you for the unfetted mind, it is very helpful to see there is nothing new about this. I need to read the notes a few times to take it in, there is alot of information. I think what they said is the same as today.
A version without explainations would be good.

to place your mind below your belly button has worked well in the past for me, but nothing works well for pistol, I can only put this down to not being at a level to take advantage of it yet.


alb,
picturing sight picture etc is a very good pathway to directing your attention elswhere, its the pathway, not the destination!

using your imagination, not "imagination", very different.

I suspect the fact that people travelled from all over the place to be taught by the zin master, would indicate it is not that simple. and this thread would be very short. sorry bill.

bill,
It is very hard because you are fighting yourself in comp.
what you are describing is not what I am talking about. so no, we do not shoot that way.
yes it is a pain when someone comes along and says what you are doing is wrong, without understanding why. you can shoot very well the way you are, but that last 10 points, that is a different story. if any one is going to prove me wrong it is you.
sorry if Im contributing to much to your thread

imho

bryan

A guy named Brian Enos wrote a good book that discusses the mental aspects of shooting called, "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals." It's focused primarily on IPSC shooting, but I think has a lot of information that is applicable to 10m AP, FP, and other precision events.

For example, he gives the example of tossing your key chain in the air and catching it. You can do it repetitively without dropping them, yet nobody actually thinks about focusing on the keys, then moving their arm, then rotating their wrist, then opening their hand, then moving their head as they watch the keys, drop, etc. He figures the mental state required to perform well should be like that of when you catch your keys.

Also, he has a sort of different idea on "concentration." It seems that most folks are really big on "concentrating." He speaks of the benefits of being more aware; noticing all the subtle things that might affect a shot and how you (the shooter) are affected during the shot process.

It's a very good book that's worth checking out.

sounds interesting
that is the view many are taking, and this is another good example, but if I gave him 5 sets keys at once, then said you get xxxx dollars if you catch them all at once 3 times in a row, it might not be all that easy.
I have not read the book, so its not fair to brian unos to poke at it. If you can find a common understanding with it, stick to it, and likely many others will also find some common bond.


I hate the word concentrate with a passion. try not to use it. if I do come across it I like to ask what it means to the person concerned. focus your attention to one place is much better. lots time can be wasted trying to concentrate if you are unsure of what it really is.

bryan