TargetTalk

Hi

I have a couple of comments. first of all, can someone provide a concise description of Olympic shooting as opposed to Bullseye Shooting? I shoot bullseye, we shoot 9 targets for each match, and in general we shoot three matches in an aggregate match. The 9 targets are 3 slow fire targets, 1 minute per shot, with 10 shots per target; 3 timed first targets 20 seconds for 5 shots (twice) for 10 shots per target; and 3 Rapid Fire targets 10 seconds for 5 shots (again twice) for 10 shots per target. The same 9 targets are shot for three guns 1. Smallbore; 2. Centerfire (possibly including .45 ACP) and 3. .45 ACP. Therefore a score of 2700, 270X is possible.

Can someone please do that for Oylmpic Pistol?

Second thing. I'd really like to see if Pilkington's could start importing the IZH-35 smallbore pistol. I understand that Spartan arms (Remington) has bought the rights to EAA's IZH shotguns, but there's apparentlyh a market.

Mike
Wichita KS

There's no international-style version of the 3-gun matches you're used to. But a standard pistol match is very similar to the BE stage fired with a .22 except for a few changes (in no particular order):

1. Standard pistol is shot at 25m compared to 50 yards for slow fire and 25 yards for timed and rapid in BE. Both standard pistol and BE can, of course, be shot at shorter distances using reduced targets, but at any given distance, e.g., 50 feet, the black on the international target is bigger. For standard pistol at 50 feet, the 10-ring is 1.1" for slow, timed and rapid. For BE at 50 feet, the 10-ring is .9" for slow but 1.8" for timed and rapid.

2. The course of fire in standard pistol is 4 strings of 5 shots in slow, timed and rapid, the times for each string being 150 seconds slow, 20 seconds timed and 10 seconds rapid. In BE, it's 3 strings of 10 shots in 10 minutes slow and 6 strings of 5 shots each in 20 seconds timed and 10 seconds rapid. In standard pistol, you get sighter series.

3. Only open iron sights are allowed in standard pistol. In BE, you're allowed to use red dots and telescopic sights.

4. You cannot load your magazines in standard pistol until the load command is given before each string. In BE, lots of folks load up a whole bunch of magazines before they even come to the match.

5. For standard pistol, you must start each string with your gun at the "ready" position, at roughly 45 degrees from the target but not resting on the bench. In BE, you get to hold on target (if you're using a buzzer) or on the place where you expect the target to appear (if you're using turning targets.) For timed and especially for rapid, having to bring the gun up and find your sights (and iron ones at that!) before you can take the first shot is a pretty big difference.

6. Trigger pulls are minimum 1 kg (2.2 lbs) for standard pistol versus 2 lbs for BE.

7. Wrap-around grips are not allowed in standard pistol.

8. Gloves, boots and, in general, any sort clothing that might offer support is not allowed in standard pistol. All of this is permitted in BE.

The overall effect is that .22 BE and standard pistol are pretty darn similar, but most shooters will probably score a little lower (as a percentage of possible) in standard pistol.

One nice choice no one has mentioned is the Benelli MP95. New is $699, but I've seen them used around the $500 pricepoint. I know of a few bullseye shooters that have retired their S&W 41's to the safe after shooting the Benelli. They're currently imported by Larry's in Maine, so parts and support should be good.

I agree that someone is missing out by not importing the IZH 35. Used ones I see occasionally go for well over what they ever cost new. And at around $500-$600 there's nothing comparable. As someone said, perhaps not even for $1,000.

Good luck in your search. FWIW - A bull-barrel Ruger with the simple addition of a Volquartsen sear (or trigger job) will do very well for you.

I'll second the Benelli, not bad as it is, and easily upgradeable by adding the Model 90 grips and/or trigger module.

Bill

I see no basic problem with a Ruger as they can eventually be upgraded by several good mechanics. We used the Rugers and HiStandards at the USMMA and they made fine target pistols. No it's not a Pardini , however I shot a S&W41 and Hi-Standard in Standard Pistol and had no problem keeping ahead of the heap for a good number of years. New Hi-Standards are not dogs---one word of caution with Hi-Standard is with the magazines--they need adjusting which you will have to learn in a hurry. If you look around there have been some Izzy's around for sale, however if you want parts---anything not made in the USA will be tougher. Some of the IZH's that have been up for sale recently have been in near 100% condition and will last for years---and it's more than entry level. Modern S&W's are not worth the bucks as most have to be returned to their custom shop for a few hundred dollars of work to make them suitable for bullseye. I realize it is a quandry---you will overcome.

I shot a Ruger MKII slabside for the longest time. They are quite accurate but the triggers can stand a bit of some massaging. There are plenty of drop in trigger kits that will take care of that problem. There are also anotomical grips available for the pistol making it a great starter pistol for under $500 if you find a good used one.

The Browning Buckmark is also a good choice as well as any High Standard Citation or Trophy model. All can be found for under $500 if you shop around.

I have owned all of the said pistols and they will all shoot just fine. But my personal favorite is the Ruger slabside.

The May 2005 edition of Shooting Sports USA magazine contained an article entitled "Bullseye on a Budget"

The article was written for the benefit of new shooters and focuses on the Ruger MKII. It aprovides detailed information on the flexibility of this gun including all the upgrades you could add to make it a very respectable shooter either for bullseye or ISSF events

I would offer to send this in PDF format to anyone who asked but I think that would constitute a copyright infringement.

If you're serioiusly considering an entry level .22, this article is a must read.

Go to the following site to order a back copy of this magazine:


http://www.nracentral.com/shooting_sports_usa.php

Why do guys screw aropund with Rugers , for the cost of " pimping " a Ruger you can get pretty close to the price of a used Walther GSP . This will give you a fully competative piece , that will digest thosands of rounds , doesnt need springs , firing pins etc. replaced all the time ( 2-5k rounds ) . The beast has pretty good backwards and forwards parts compatibility , is a snap to takedown , and parts can be scrounged/ borrowed almost anywhere .

Price and availability.

In the U.S., a used GSP will run over $1,000 USD. A Ruger goes for about $350.

Not that I disagree with your point. American shooters tend to favor tarting up a low-end gun over buying top-of-the-line equipment.

Hey up there in Canuck land,

Pray tell - find me a Walther in good to excellent shape for the price of a brand new "pimped out" competition ready Ruger. I'll buy one for the both of us.

Not everyone needs or is in the financial position to start out with a euro gun.

For the cost of the Ruger plus modifications required to make it a competitive pistol, you may as well just buy a S&W Model 41 and be done with it.

The only other thing you'd need would be a set of target stocks.

Our situation up here is a bit different , a new Ruger would cost more than in the US , aftermarket parts would be both a PITA to locate and costly . I've seen used GSP's in the 1200-1000 .00 $ Can. range . A pimped out , competition ready Ruger would be pretty close to $800.00 Can. For a couple hundred bucks difference - a no brainer .

Chris

cdf wrote:Our situation up here is a bit different , a new Ruger would cost more than in the US , aftermarket parts would be both a PITA to locate and costly . I've seen used GSP's in the 1200-1000 .00 $ Can. range . A pimped out , competition ready Ruger would be pretty close to $800.00 Can. For a couple hundred bucks difference - a no brainer .

Chris

After some additional checking around, it looks like an 'entry level' Ruger bullseye pistol (minus a red dot scope) can be put together for about $350 new. $280 for the Ruger MKIII512, $50 for Volquartsen grips, and $20 for a Volquartsen target sear to get the trigger put down to a 'crisp' 2 lbs.





The Benelli MP95E (@ $699) seems to be the next 'increment' up in peformance in terms of what's actually available for sale. Doesn't look like there's that many of what I'll call interesting as well as moderately priced used .22 target pistols for sale. Larry of Larrysguns, said that he rarely if ever sees a used MP95E. I guess that most Olympic pistol shooters are reluctant to part with their target pistols.

The Ruger isn't a bad choice. I did a little trigger work on my Ruger Mark II and made it to 880/900 in BE competition. But don't discount the Buckmark that bubba_zenetti mentioned. Several years ago I tried out a Buck Mark 5.5 Target and was pleased enough after the first outing that I was going to buy one almost immediately. I ended up not going through with it in the long run due to a minor cold-weather issue. I took it to a match on a cold day and had a couple feed problems. I never pursued finding out why since it was a borrowed gun. It may have just needed a lighter oil than what was in it. I was still impressed with my scores that day despite the malfunctions. Browning's MSRP seems to only be $511.00 and it is ready to go out of the box - no extras (other than ammo) needed. It might be worth a look. Of course, then again, it might not be a cold weather gun...<smile>

The specific model can be seen here:

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... ype_id=402

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Go to the club meets. check out all the guns. find one that suits you. Let everyone know you are in the market. Read the adds posted on the range wall. Best buy is usually a used gun that someone has already set up and comes with grips, spare mags dot and mount, maybe even a gun case and scope.

I hesitate to say Ruger because after you add in all that stuff you get pretty darn near the price of a Benelli.

However the local shop just sold a used Clark Ruger for $450. 15 min before I got there, probably would have been a pretty good gun.

The Ruger is a pretty good gun for what it is. However, as for tricking it out, the money you put into the aftermarket parts probably won't be re-couped if you decide to upgrade later on. So in the long run, it can be a costly proposition. Check out gunbroker for used Hi Standards, S/W 41, or a Clark modified Ruger. These are good, competitive to a certain level, and retain their value. Alternately, save your $$ for something better. Too bad there are no US makers of a truly competitive small bore pistol.
Regarding the IZH, it seemed pretty promising when it first appeared in my neck of the woods, around 2000/2001. But, the few I've seen have not held up. The heat treating on the breach is not very good and the slide just battered them to the point that they would not chamber, fire, or group as when new. They are a pain to work on since the barrel is silver soldered in place. Maybe they ended up fixing all that, but the few I saw were scrapped. I remember one guy selling his off for $150, and being glad to be rid of it.

Nicole Hamilton wrote:
8. Gloves, boots and, in general, any sort clothing that might offer support is not allowed in standard pistol. All of this is permitted in BE.

The overall effect is that .22 BE and standard pistol are pretty darn similar, but most shooters will probably score a little lower (as a percentage of possible) in standard pistol.

Hi Nicole

Thanks for the description. I checked the NRA Pistol Rules and number 8 is basically the same in Standard Pistol and in Bullseye. No gloves, boots are O.K., no special jackets. The big difference to me is starting with the gun down.

To quote Rule 5.2 Artificial Support ... a) Any supporting surface excluding the ground, not specifically authorized by the rules for the position perscribed, b) Any Garment which can be interpreted as providing artificial support. c) Any glove on the shooting hand. d) Any band on the shooting arm (including wrist watches) that are within two inches of the wrist joint. The term artificial support does not apply to "tennis elbow" type straps.... e) Other devices that can be interpreted as artificial support.

From what I've seen, the NRA / CMP allows combat boots which provide a way to stop some movement. These are PROBABLY allowed because Service Pistol is one of the main matches at Camp Perry, and it's obviously a military style match.

Thanks again

Mike

Hi Everyone,
I did a little experiment, and bought a Ruger mark II with a bull barrel with the intention of tuning it up for Bullseye, just to see how well I could do. I spent the following:

Gun: $284
Trigger, replacement pins and bushings: $35
Rear Sight (millet series 100) $20
Nill Grip $165
Some home gunsmithing to rework
trigger, hammer & sear: $3 or 4 hours

For a little over $500 my Mark II is pretty much equal to my Model 41 in performance, and I can shoot similar scores with either. If I substitute a Volquartsen grip for the Nill, the grand total is under $400 (for a new gun).

If I was really on a budget, I'd get the cheapest Ruger (new/used) that I could find, and get a $100 trigger job and a Volquartsen grip. I think that would be the most bang for the buck for either std. pistol or bullseye.

Anyway, just my 2 cents...
Steve.

From some of the previous comments, the major criticism of the budget .22 target pistols (e.g., a Ruger MKIII or Browning Buckmark) isn't the accuracy - but rather the poor triggers and the lack of an anatomical match grip similar to the $1500+ European target pistols. If some of the claims on MkIII.org board are true (as well as the referenced NRA Bullseye article) - then the substitution of the $20 Volquartsen sear actually closes quite a bit of the 'trigger' gap. Of course that still leaves the anatomical match grip 'gap'. Again, many have gone the Volquartsen grip route for MKIII512's to close the 'grip' gap. But as an alternative, what about taking a look at the lowly Ruger 22/45's for inspiration? I'm not thinking aftermarket for this idea. But instead, how difficult would it be for Ruger to offer a 22/45 with an integrated molded flat black plastic stippled anatomical grip.

You are still stuck with the problem that the bore line of the Ruger is close to an inch higher than that of any of the magazine-forward European guns. Also, a one-size-fits-all molded grip isn't the answer unless it happens to fit YOU. The European pistols come in at least three grip sizes typically, and (depending on the pistol) are adjustable to some degree.

How well a pistol shoots for you depends on both the fundamental design (like the bore height), but also how well you can adjust it to fit your hand and preference for balance, trigger, sights, etc. The European gun makers know this, and a lot of the added expense is in all of the adjustments. Not just trigger pull, but trigger location, angle, etc. The sights can be had in different widths for both the front & the rear. Some sort of balance weight system is also common.

If you are willing to fiddle with a Ruger long enough, custom machining sight blades, barrel weights, trigger shoes, etc. you can probably come up with a combination that works quite well. In the end you have a pistol with a high bore line, little re-sale value, and the time you spent customizing it would have probably been better used practicing. Some people enjoy that kind of tinkering, which is fine. There are certainly also some people who shoot very respectable scores with them in competition. I'd rather save up my money and spend my time at the range with a pistol I can easily adjust to suit me.