TargetTalk

[quote="ruig"][quote="Nev C"]"Don't move the gun while you are pulling the trigger".[/quote] +++

[quote="Nicole Hamilton"]Focus on the front sight, because sight alignment is way more important than sight picture[/quote]
+++[/quote]


Let the hammer fall "while" the sights are good and remain good.

I would like to add :-

To acquire , through training , the ability to manifest the (normally) mutually exclusive states of Relaxation and Concentration.


Elmas


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Hold the pistol as still as you can. Train your muscle system to hold it stiller.Try to hold it perfectly still.{ you may have to die to acheive this} Next or simultaniously Train your trigger finger to apply steadily increasing pressure to the trigger straight to the rear so as not to disturb the stillness.Focus both vesion and mental attention on the front sight , keeping the flat top of the front sight level with the flat top of the rear sight. Keep the front sight centered in the rear sight notch. Learn to plan each shot and each string of shots by visualing the feel of the support system , planing when you are going to initiate trigger movement and forming a clear mental picture of how you want the sight to appear supperimposed against the target. I do not subscribed to Mr Swartzs' 100 ms trigger application. Sounds too much like a jerk to me. II do accept the idea that each shooters trigger control may be different, I also contend that if it works for you you should write and tell every one you speak to to .apply the 100 ms technique you use.This reinforces your own performance and functions as a very effective training system

i find it especially hard to release my 1st and last shots during competition. all seems well during the sighters, but i am always strike by a bad case of chicken fingers whenever i attempted to start my score cards.

This also apply to my last shot, which i always seems to screw-up, with a shitty score. e.g. 7 or 8.

both both of these shots, i have to go through numerous abortions before i can finally release the shots.

Any tips to solve this? i have tried dry firing several times before attempting these 2 shots, to "prepare" myself for the shots mentally. so far, this doesn't seems to help.

and one more question. how do you guys hold your alignments? Using delicate balancing of the wrist or do you simply hold the sights using brute force? For me, i find myself using, perhaphs, too much force to maintain sight alignment, so i usually get tired by around 50 shots (including sighters), and my sights will start to wobble.

People have suggested to me to use something along the line of "skeletal strength" (using tendons than muscles) to balance and align the sights. is it helpful?

[quote="donthc"]i find it especially hard to release my 1st and last shots during competition. all seems well during the sighters, but i am always strike by a bad case of chicken fingers whenever i attempted to start my score cards.

>>>It's all in your head. Get over it.


This also apply to my last shot, which i always seems to screw-up, with a shitty score. e.g. 7 or 8.

>>>One shot at a time. Forget the &*%$#@*! score.



both both of these shots, i have to go through numerous abortions before i can finally release the shots.

Any tips to solve this? i have tried dry firing several times before attempting these 2 shots, to "prepare" myself for the shots mentally. so far, this doesn't seems to help.

and one more question. how do you guys hold your alignments? Using delicate balancing of the wrist

>>>No. Too much in the conscious.


or do you simply hold the sights using brute force?

>>>No. I find it easier to create the solid feel of the gun-arm- shoulder-head-eye to be a unit and ALL of it is steady and aligned. Like a gun mount on my upper torso turret. Keeps my attention back at the gun, not out at the target. With the feel of support of the gun spread over a larger area, gun to head, no one thing like wrist only has to be singled out in a fatiguing and conscious manner to force control the gun.


For me, i find myself using, perhaphs, too much force to maintain sight alignment, so i usually get tired by around 50 shots (including sighters), and my sights will start to wobble.

>>>Don't force it. Find a mental approach that gets alignment from your inner self, without conscious effort. I am trying to see the sight and mentally tell my inner self to align it. I don't want to align the sight. I want to see that it is aligned by ordering something inside to align it. Remove the self. Find a way to let the inner self finalize the shot.


People have suggested to me to use something along the line of "skeletal strength" (using tendons than muscles) to balance and align the sights. is it helpful?[/quote]


>>>At least this is getting me nines and tens. When I relax from this approach, I get 7 and 8's.

Proper setup too.

Squeeze the Fore Sight, back through the Rear Sight until the Shot goes BANG.

Every shot should be a surprise. Your attention should be on sight alignment, your eyes focused on the front sight, your body positioned for natural point of aim and the pistol set in your hand for natural (or as close as you can get it) sight alignment. Using an aggressive trigger squeeze to initiate trigger pull as you fine tune sight alignment ensures a smooth steady break as you sustain sight alignment through an established rhythm. Never focus on the score. A bad shot is as ancient history as the dinosaurs and as unchangable.

Well, that's a lot of tips with a whole lot of nuances.

The best single peace of advice I ever got was about mental training. As new shooters, we were asked to visualize our perfect shot. The coach then asked how many of us visualized something less than a perfect ten. I was a little surprised how many of us in the room raised our hands. The next comment was, "If you can't imagine a perfect shot, how do you ever expect to shoot one?" It took me two years at 10 hours practice a week to figure out exactly what the coach said. It is worth all the time I spend chasing my "perfect" shot. Good luck.

Good shooting,
Phil

Well, actually, to reiterate . . . the best piece of advice I got was to most decidedly NOT worry about holding the gun still.

Since you can't ever do that anyhow, why bother?

Of course you should train a certain amount with weights etc to be able to hold the gun "reasonably" still. Just like you should spend some time on things like grip, stance, etc. However

1. The gun will always be moving
2. If you break the shot when alignment and aim are perfect, you are too damn late
3. As long as the alignment is perfect, and your wobble is settled, your brain will figure out just when to break the shot without your thinking about it.

Just like hitting a 90 mph fastball, you will never be able to move the bat fast enough to stay ahead of the pitch. You have to put the bat in front of the ball before it gets there. Sure you should train to speed up your bat, but a quick bat will never reach the ball after you see it and swing.

I wasted a lot of good months worrying about "aiming" or "pointing" the gun.

Never broke 2600 (or 570 Air/550 Free for that matter) until some good old boy finally convinced me that perfect trigger during perfect align was all it took.

But I was stubborn, and felt that an 8-ring wobble just wouldn't get it done, so i wasted his time and mine.

Still have that 8-ring wobble (well, mostly inside the 8 . . . slips out into 6 on occasion according to the laser tracker), but my scores sure have improved.

And on top of that- every single time I hit a slump . . . I stay in that slump until I "rediscover" that single most important thing again.

TRUST THE PROCESS

Steve Swartz

(just last week I shot a 543 in AP. O.K., for me that's 30 points off of where I have been comfortably in the past. Yeah, that's some serious slumpage! Then in Free pistol shot an 86 target . . . had that epiphany about not trying to point the gun again, and finished with a 544. Last target was a 96. And that last target looked EXACTLY the same as that first target from behind the sights. THe ONLY thing that was diffreent was that for target 1 I was trying to "read" the aim and alignment and break the shot. For target last all I was trying to do was maintain perfect alignment while settled, and give my finger permission to release the shot.

HALLELUJAH!

Just like abstinence- it works every single time it's tried! The problem (again, just like abstinence) is having the will to actually use it . . . !

It is very hard to help if you dont have any details, so really need training results, comp results, how long you have been at it, what you shoot, what you shoot with, how old, male/female, and anything that may affect your results.
need glasses?

so hopefully some of the suggestions where of help.

elmas, I am new to pistol, but not shooting, and have watched some of the worlds best pistol shooters train on scatt etc over the yrs. you may find it suprising, but some hold it very steady, like paint the 10 out in ap, not all of it, just the middle bit, then the white shot takes out most of the hold pattern.

scatt has demo files of actual shooters you can look at, I have never looked at pistol, but you may be suprised.

just remember these people have access to anything they need to be better, so it is of little use to compare yourself, but a guide to what is possible.

I expect I am holding the 9 pretty well, but still mastering the trigger, but it is getting there.
current results between 545 and 565, still with the old borrowed cranker.
this time next year I plan to have increased 20 points, but will need a better pistol!
It may be to much to expect, but there is alot of room for improvement.

I have learned many things I am doing reading this forum. so all I can suggest is search more till you find what you are looking for.

bryan

Every time I ask someone who has been shooting may more years than I have they always say the same thing....

Step one:
DRY FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Step two:
see step one and repeat.

Do not limit this to 5 mins before you shoot each time. Dry Fire a lot. Try 20 mins.

Yes it is not fun. It will produce results. You just have to give it time.

I love dry firing, but im nuts! ;)

The best tip i can give a beginner, and i see alot, is to take an interest in how shooting really works. Most ppl just come to the club and expect to learn by just trying. It aint that easy with most sports! Once u understand the mechanics and psychology it will give u food for fast improvement: "read a damn book!" (on the subject). Thats the advice!

Bryan!:

I do have to (quibble? take exception to?) somewhat disagree? with your statement about the ability to hold of top shooters.

Or maybe not.

I don't disagree that there are some world-class shooters who (according to Scatt/Rika/etc.) do have the "Golden Full Second Ten Ring Hold."

I have seen Steve Ryder (past national bullseye champion type guy) hold in the ten ring for over a second with an amazing degree of reliability on occasion. Maybe one other guy.

I maintain- and maybe I am wrong; this is just what I have personally seen- with no scientific study to back it up- that these athletes 1) are the exception, even in world class levels; and 2) even those who can "hold ten ring for a second or so at a time" can't do it all the time.

What I have seen more frequently is a respectable 9-ring wobble; where 80% or so of the time is spent outside the ten ring.

So how do they shoot so many tens?

My best guess (and as a result of mnust plain asking them) is that the top shooters release the shot the appropriate amount of time ahead of when the muzzle will be painting the ten ring.

They "lead the target" so to speak. Important to note that they *don't* do this on purpose or consciously (although some have dabbled with "swing shooting" or "timed release" techniques, this has not found to be a successful).

Focus on front sight . . . work as hard as you can at keeping sights perfectly aligned . . . and then watch the settle carefully and turn the release over to the subconscious.

Anyhow, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"

Steve Swartz

Some excellent recommendations posted above. One of the things that helped me a lot when I first got started was to learn to put the gun down when things did not fall into place rather than to hold too long or try to force the shot (which never works out well). Joe G.

Mind the fundamentals. All errors come from poor fundamentals.

That, and don't force the shot...put the gun down first.

Questor wrote: My best tip is to learn to dry fire effectively.

Questor, I don't know if it is a good tip, but I would say this. Rise your pistol, when you are on that target zone, and the sights are aligned, close your eyes, keep your eyes shut, pull the trigger smoothly and continuosly until the shot breaks (it is not so easy because your brain tries to get informations, about the alignment on the target etc., not from your eyes but from your body), keep the follow through, 'call' your shot, read your real shot. Do it again. And again.

Hi steve, I made the statement because the general concensus is we all wobble a lot, and how do we expect to be the best considering the results they shoot.
the point being, they hold better, but that doesnt mean they are better.

"they" being the national team members in issf events, which largely make up thier countries olympic shooting team.
I have had nothing to do with none issf pistol events as my exposure was from shooting issf.

it is unreasonable to expect to shoot as good as someone with a 9-10 ring hold, if you have a 8-9 ring hold. but in comp this is not always the case.

holding steady is the by product of training well, and lots.
at early stages I imagine this would include just holding the pistol still. but later it will be from muscle memory, so not specificaly trying to hold still.
It is hard work to be disiplined enough to stay focused on your shooting plan. this is what you have to try to do, not shoot 10's, 10's are a by product of a good shot process. ie, shooting plan.
your shooting plan doesnt have a line in it that says, "shoot a ten"
yet if you follow it well, you will get lots of them.

If you are focusing well the shot will break on the way towards the centre of your hold, landing in the middle of it.
if not in control you will generally overshoot the centre of hold pattern. if out of control the white hole will be off the trace line if system set up correctly.
sometimes you can break to early if not in control.

it's when your well learned coach says, just shoot .2 sec earlier and you will increase your result by 10 points. you have to laugh.

Steve, what you are doing looks like a good shot plan.
if you shoot as well in comp as training, you need to stick with what you are doing.
If not, there is always room for improvement.


imho

bryan

. . . a 9-ring holder who consciously releases the shot will always get whupped by an 8-ring holder who simply focuses on perfect alignment and ignores "aim" . . .

Steve Swartz

Steve, thats debatable.
thats why I said not always the case. if you focus better, but have poor hold, you may whip them if they are not focusing well, even with the better hold.

I wouldnt confuse consciously shooting, against shooting with anxiety.
one will shoot their average group size, one wont.
so it is a big ask to reduce a 8 ring hold to a 9-10 ring group.

or not

imho

bryan

Huelet Benner told me that there was a time when he could hold a pistol dead still. Foolishly, I spent many hours trying to hold it still and then one day I did hold the pistol dead still. It can be done. And it is a worthwhile goal After all, Isn't holding it still fundamental ? The next person to accomplish may set the a new world record. Good Shooting Bill Horton

One of the most neglected discussions is

"How can we improve our hold to be very very still?"

The answers 'dryfire', practice, conditioning, etc. are not what I mean.
What would your coach say (to those that have a coach. I don't.) to do to your holding method and technique to hold as still as possible. Then you would go and practice it.

To me, it all starts with the hold. A less than your best hold will mess up your mental concentration. A less than proper mental approach will mess up your trigger (assuming mechanics are ok) if you let it. An improper trigger will mess up your shot a lot. I firmly believe in this. Yes its not a positive way to state it, but I think it makes a point.

So- Tips on making the gun very very still are.......