TargetTalk

Having shot a M41 for some 40 years, I can say that it is no more finicky than my Pardini or IZH. All have had problems which were eventually diagnosed and fixed. In the case of the M41, I had to have the extractor 'tuned' some 30 yrs ago and have done nothing since, other than replace aged recoil springs. Reading some of the horror stories here on TT, I am not convinced that the European guns have the edge in reliability out of the box. :-)

The M41 is really not much of a step up from a properly tuned Ruger. Now that you have the Mark III, you're better off putting the money into an action job and grips on the Ruger.

Nicole Hamilton wrote: But, returning to your first point, I agree with the rest of your assessment of the 41. It's popular in NRA BE circles, but I'm not really sure why, except maybe just that it's a crowd where there's less awareness of "funny-looking" European target guns.

It's no mystery. If you walk into the typical gun store to buy a 22 for Bullseye all you will see are Ruger and S&W, perhaps a Browning. If you have some experience and are ready to move up to something better, there are any number of local smiths who can fix you up with a Marvel or similar conversion. Plus there is a lot of local support if your gun turns out to be one of the finicky ones. I never found any pistolsmith knowledgeable about a Pardini, other than Don Nygord - and now Larry Carter.

I think we're saying the same thing, that the 41 is popular because, especially in the NRA BE circles, people are more aware of it and it's more available. The 41 has been around a long time and there are a lot of really good NRA BE shooters who've been using them for years. Newcomers start competiting, see people shooting 41s and they want one. Then they go to any gun store and they have them on the shelf.

I will say this about the 41: It's definitely a pretty gun. Some of them (especially some of the older ones) have some really beautiful bluing. Even though I think they're a really poor choice for competition, that doesn't mean I haven't been tempted (when a good opportunity seemed to be presenting itself) to buy one just because they are so pretty. :)

Just walked into a gun shop and there was a 41 with target adjustable grips a ultra dot scope and looked nice.They wanted 750 and I offered 650. I don't even know if it will shoot but it looked good.They have to ask the person who owns it if they will take 650.So I have to wait. Ron

A lot ofBullseye shooters place a large premium on a 22 that feels like a 45, primarily in the grip angle dept. The 41 and "military" High Standards have traditionally been regarded as pretty good in this regard. Herrett makes a 45 "trainer" grip for both of these. It's supposed to simulate a 1911. They also handle and load like a 45. Of course, so does a Hammerli 208. Of these three 22s, I think most BE shooters regard the 208 as the ultimate. I have a 41, but greatly prefer my Pardini. It is superbly accurate, extremely ergonomic (for me) and totally reliable. It would shoot rocks if I could get them in the magazine. (Guess I have a good one... Thanks Don!!) Therefore, in BE matches I happily use the Pardini, and happily switch to a 1911 for the rest of the match. Now if the NRA would just create separate classifications for iron sights and optical sights......

By the time you " pimp " a Ruger or fiddle around with a S&W 41 you would have just about spent the price of a used GSP ( at least around these parts ) . They are hard to beat for reliability , there are often potfulls of interchangable parts around .. It seems to be a circle that leads inexorably back to the GSP

Chris.

Anyone hear of this (High-Standard "The Victor").A shop has one for sale and they say its a great target gun.Is it as good as a S&W MODEL 41?I never heard of it.

When I first started shooting (in 1980) the two best pistols our club had to learn on were the 41 and the Victor. IMHO there was no comparison, the Victor won out every time.

It is obviously not in the same class as the latest high end guns but I doubt if it is anywhere near the same price.

Are spares still available?

Can you help? I'm looking at an old victor to buy,I Was looking at a S&W model 41 but someone told me a Victor is a good target gun.Is it?Anything you can tell me to look for before I buy?I know NOTHING.He told me it form the 60's.New condition.He said they sell for 2400 but he has this for 1200.That all sounds like a very high price! Can you get me some info?Does year count? How to tell year ?Thanks Ron

darticus wrote:Can you help? I'm looking at an old victor to buy... He said they sell for 2400 but he has this for 1200.

Is that in Yen or Lira? I hope it's not US Dollars!

No, you should not spend $1200 for a used Victor. If you have that kind of money, buy a Pardini or similar quality gun. If you don't have that kind of money and you're just getting started, you already have my recommendation: Buy a S&W 22A ($205 for the light barrel, about $340 if you want the bull barrel), spend your money on ammo and getting lots of practice and going to matches, and in a year or so, you'll have the experience to know what gun is right for you without having to ask. And if you want to sell the 22A at that point, you should be able to get back almost what you paid.

Where are the Pardini's for sale. NJ shops don't know Pardini's etc. Maybe a model 41, available here, would be good. Maybe save my money?

Nicole Hamilton wrote:No, you should not spend $1200 for a used Victor. If you have that kind of money, buy a Pardini or similar quality gun.

Ron, I have to agree with Nicole, which could be the first time ever ;-)

It doesn't matter what year the Victor is, it is not worth $1200 if you just want to shoot it. I don't know if a mint one would be worth it to a collector but I would be surprised.

[quote="darticus"]Anyone hear of this (High-Standard "The Victor").A shop has one for sale and they say its a great target gun.Is it as good as a S&W MODEL 41?I never heard of it.[/quote]

I have been watching this thread from the beginning and have not for sure heard your intended use. I assume "Olympic" type matches, but since "Bullseye" is very strong in New Jersey you probably will compete in that too.

In my Oregon, a used 41, or used Victor or Trophy/Citation can be had for $500 on the low end if the gun is good condition. (Older High Standards only. Forget about the current ones.) Some inspections and restorations are probably called for, especially in the High Standard. Used High Standards (Models 106-107, maybe 104 if you like the slanted grip) and 41's can be restored and tuned and or pimped to run with the best of them. Finding good magazines is a big problem with the High Standard. Not all gunsmiths are knowledgeable in them anymore.

Pardini and Benelli at larrysguns.com

Hammerli where you find them

I do not know who sells FWB Aw93 or Walther

While $1200 for a Victor is pretty steep, IF the gun is a 10-X version, hand built by Shea, it would command that price. Not, by any means, to say that I'd pay that, .....But, just for completeness, thought I'd toss that in.

darticus wrote:Where are the Pardini's for sale. NJ shops don't know Pardini's etc.

The market for fine quality guns suitable for competition is only a tiny fraction of the overall market for guns. I don't know the actual numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could count the total annual sales in any given state of Pardini SP's (or any similar gun) on just your fingers, maybe even the fingers of one hand. By comparison, there are probably some dealers out there that sell that many Glocks in a week!

So if you get into competition and you want to buy fine guns, sooner or later you will have to figure out how to buy them from a distributor in another state because, as you discovered, no local stores could ever sell enough to want to stock them. But it's not hard at all. You find out who the distributor is (you can always ask here), call them up and give them a credit card or mail them a check, and they send the gun to an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) in your state. Your local FFL will collect a fee, have you fill out some paperwork and call the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) for an "instant" background check. Depending on the laws in your state (and, for example, whether you have a state "concealed carry permit" or similar license) you will either walk out right then with the gun or come back a few days later.

The hardest parts about all this are (a) figuring out what to buy since you can't just walk into a store to play with it first, and (b) finding a local FFL who won't gouge you on the transfer fee.

To figure out what to buy, you're already doing some of it by asking here. Another way is get into competition and see what other people are shooting. Most folks are proud of their guns and happy to discuss the factors behind their choices. Many are quite willing to let someone who's also thinking about buying one try theirs out, either dry-firing or actually firing off a few rounds just to get feel for the trigger and balance, etc.

Sometimes the distributor will already have worked with an FFL in your area and if that FFL's fees are acceptable, you're on your way. But if you need to find a local FFL yourself, there are several databases of them on the net. The one I've used is the one on the Gunsamerica site. Look for someone close by who's willing to do it for about $15. You should not have to pay more than about $20 tops and you definitely should not agree to pay a percentage of the value of the gun. Give them a call and find out if they're still in business and willing to do transfers for you. If they are, have them mail you a signed copy of their FFL license, which you'll forward to the distributor so he'll know (and have a record) that it's legal to ship your gun there.

Maybe my best bet is to buy the S&W model 41 with ultra dot and target grips for 750.Looks like very nice condition.Anything to worry about with model 41's that I should know.Any way to look at a 41 without taking it apart to check?Ron

I don't think you've gotten much encouragement here that you should buy a Model 41, so it sounds like you've decided you just plain want one and would like someone to tell you it's a great idea. Is that about right?

I thought some supported it. Its the only gun available at that price in nice condition.What do you say I should do, realy? At about 750 or maybe a little more or skies the limit. What was the consensus of the group do you think? Some liked the Victor, some the 41, some the Ruger, some Walther, some Pardini, did I forget some? Shoot give me a rock. Money burning a hole in my pocket. WHAT! TALK TO ME! HELP! I NEED SOMEBODY!

darticus wrote:Money burning a hole in my pocket.

Yes, that much was clear. :)

I think the advice you've been getting has been pretty consistent: If you can afford a serious target gun, get a Pardini or Walther or similar European "standard pistol." If you can't afford that or if you're struggling with limited experience (e.g., if you're unsure of the difference between a single-stage trigger in a 41 and a two stage trigger in a Pardini) save your money and buy an entry-level gun like the Ruger or the 22A. Just do some research to know what you should pay. Some unscrupulous dealers do take advantage of new shooters who don't know the going prices!

Choosing a gun is not rocket science, you just need a little exposure to something more than a dealer's salespitch. After maybe a year of going to some matches with a Ruger or a 22A, you'll see what other people are shooting and you'll quickly learn what makes one gun different than another and what it is that you personally prefer. At that point, if you want to trade up and you want to sell your Ruger or 22A, these are popular guns for which there's always a ready market, so you should have no trouble recovering most of what you spent.

You've asked about "in between" guns like the 41 and response has been pretty consistently luke-warm. They're too expensive to be considered entry-level guns but they lack the features (e.g., trigger and grip) routinely found in the European guns. As such, they aren't very good choices for competition.

About the only gun that's "in between" in price that was recommended and which might be a credible choice is the Baikal IZH-35M, priced at about $500. It's a Russian gun and, like all things Russian, is about as pretty as a lawnmower. But it does offer features and performance that make it pretty competitive with the best European guns for a whole lot less money. Biggest problem with the IZH is availability: EAA used to import them but apparently has stopped doing that. So if you wanted one, you'd need to watch for a used one to appear. It might also be difficult to get parts, e.g., if you broke a firing pin or needed a new spring.

I have the Ruger mark III Hunter so will rough it until I see the right gun. Ron