TargetTalk

Im getting techno-babble overload here.

The other day I had the beginnings of success in doing two things.

1. Keeping my eye on the sight.

2. Trying to NOT think.

Perhaps attempting to make the sub-c take over is a lot different from letting it take over.

RobStubbs wrote: If there is some magic formula to not allow shots below nines then I've never seen it. No one has shot a perfect 600 that I'm aware of so they haven't found it either.

When one, subconsciously, realizes that the aim / sights alignement is not perfect (or it is going to be bad), does he stop the release process (stop pulling the trigger, keeping the pressure, which does not necessarily mean aborting the shot) or does he keep on, subconsciously, pulling the trigger smootly, positively, progressively, untill the shot breaks? This is a sort of logical bifurcation, something simple, not so magic. My guess is that there is a huge difference (in scores) between the two methods.

In theory and if anything works out perfect you should get better results with the latter. But I seriously doubt that it can be done under pressure at least not by everyone. IMHO you will not be able to stop pulling without loosing any of the pressure you have build up to this point. I think it is more likely that you let go off some pressure and have to rebuild it when the picture gets better again and in the long run you will jerk the trigger. As Anatoliy Piddubnyy wrote in one of his articles you can not expect to shoot better than your average hold.

When one, subconsciously, realizes that the aim / sights alignement is not perfect (or it is going to be bad), does he stop the release process (stop pulling the trigger, keeping the pressure, which does not necessarily mean aborting the shot) or does he keep on, subconsciously, pulling the trigger smootly, positively, progressively, untill the shot breaks? This is a sort of logical bifurcation, something simple, not so magic. My guess is that there is a huge difference (in scores) between the two methods.

You cannot subconsciously realise anything, the conscious has to do that. When that happens we should abort. Conscious involvement has to be minimal, anything else and the process itself becomes a conscious act and a poor shot is the probable outcome. I don't quite understand why you think continuing with the shot release with poor alignment is anything other than a bad result ? The outcome can only be poor so surely we need to stop.

Rob.

Ro wrote: In theory and if anything works out perfect you should get better results with the latter. But I seriously doubt that it can be done under pressure at least not by everyone.

This is correct. It is not so easy to shoot that way. But it is not impossible.
The important point is to keep the pressure on the trigger tongue, when you stop pulling it, waiting for a better sights alignement. Even this it is not so easy, and it must be an automatic, subconscious process!
Regards,
s.

Ro wrote: Anatoliy Piddubnyy wrote in one of his articles you can not expect to shoot better than your average hold.

What is meant by 'average hold'? The hold pattern is dynamic and changes over the time of the aiming/settling/shooting process. It seems to me we are talking about finding a process that allows the shooter to fire when the hold is optimum. That is why it is possible to shoot a 95% score when your 'average hold' is well outside the 9 ring.

RobStubbs wrote: I don't quite understand why you think continuing with the shot release with poor alignment is anything other than a bad result ? The outcome can only be poor so surely we need to stop.

Not sure I understand. I try to answer with another question.

There are shooters which score above 590/600. Even these shooters cannot keep their aim / sights alignement / hand / wrist / arm / ... completely still. Even these shooters cannot hold their pistol within the 'ten' ring, to say so.

Now, the question seems to be: if they are not able to keep their pistols within the 'ten' ring, and since the 99% of their shots is a 'ten', it means that their shots *only* break when their pistols move, slowly, within the 'ten' ring.

Is that by *chance*? Is that a surprising side-effect of the smooth, positive, progressive, consistent trigger release?

I do not think so.

I rather think that their subconscious (or their talent, if you prefer) knows or feels (or whatever else):
- when the pistol moves (or is going to move) slowly within the 'ten' ring (and they pull the trigger, or they keep pulling the trigger),
- and when the pistol moves erratically outside the 'ten' ring (and they do not pull the trigger any more, but they keep the pressure on it, for the next round).

Of course the entire process must be fast, and not conscious.

Regards,
s.

Fred Mannis wrote:It seems to me we are talking about finding a process that allows the shooter to fire when the hold is optimum.

Fred, I'm sorry but I didn't want to offend you. What I meant was that the process of loading the trigger stepwise according to the sight picture is in my opinion completely different from the approach described in the postings from Ed Hall and Steve Swartz and even done conciously and without pressure its much harder to do.

Regards,
Ro

Anonymous wrote:

Fred Mannis wrote:It seems to me we are talking about finding a process that allows the shooter to fire when the hold is optimum.

Fred, I'm sorry but I didn't want to offend you. What I meant was that the process of loading the trigger stepwise according to the sight picture is in my opinion completely different from the approach described in the postings from Ed Hall and Steve Swartz and even done conciously and without pressure its much harder to do.

Regards,
Ro

Ro, no offense taken.
Fred

Ed Hall wrote: Bill Blankenship once wrote in an article, I think in The Pistol Shooters' Treasury, about using a gauge of some design to measure his trigger pressure and perfect the gradually increasing pattern.

Ed, you won't believe it but in the mentioned book there is a picture of exactly such a device. Not kidding!

And no, you didn't sound to sarcastic. I have to apologize for sometimes missing the right tone (and needing to much time to answer).

Regards,
Ro

Steve Swartz wrote:

I may hold at first stage plus one gram-.... before applying smooth, steady increase (over teh space of say 50 ms) to release.

Ed may take up the first stage above the aiming area, then ramp up to first stage plus all but 5 grams from break while moving into the aiming area, then break those last 5 grams within the aiming area in a 10 ms terminal application

I agree entirely with Steve's view, except the time for the positive pressure to break the shot. Of course, the point is theoretical, so perhaps the times are relative, not absolute.

In slow fire (for me anyway), I would guess that once I commit to the shot, the squeeze lasts around 500ms maybe more. If I do it faster, I'm much more likely to flick a shot somewhere (still a 9, but we don't talk about those!) because I need time to get back to my job - the conscious act of keeping that front sight crystal sharp and in the centre.

Maybe with a few more 1000 repetitions this might speed up?

CROB wrote:In slow fire (for me anyway), I would guess that once I commit to the shot, the squeeze lasts around 500ms maybe more. Maybe with a few more 1000 repetitions this might speed up?

That doesn't sound like a subconscious release to me. You should be unaware of the 'commit to release' command as it should be done subconsciously, if you are aware then it is a conscious act. Half a second is a heck of a long time, if it really takes that long I'd expect some real big fliers.

Rob.

Another thign to consider is that the time to execute the "terminal" or "irrevocable" amount of pressure would probably be longer for more pressure.

Back to the (theoretical) example, if I truly settle/hold pressure on the first stage and need an additional 100 grams vs. someone who was holding pressure only 10 grams out, I might take a little longer from the "commit" signal to the release of the shot.

Therefore, one would think that the "lock time fragment" for me would be longer- and therefore, my muzzle would traverse a greater distance across the target between "commit" and "pellet clear muzzle." Theoretically, the subconscious would be able to better predict the lead time sweep of the muzzle resulting in a higher probability of tens.

Or would it? Ever wonder how blackpowder shooters (with "lock time" measured on a calendar) manage to shoot tens?

I also agree that we shouldn't really be thinking about this while we shoot! At least not for extended training sessions. I spent quite a bit of time thinking about it when I first tried to emulate what Ed was talking about. I found that a change in technique of this magnitude needed a considerable dedication of time to "Unfreezing-Moving-Refreezing" in terms of the shot plan. Just don't experiment with stuff like this too much right berfore a match . . .

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote: Theoretically, the subconscious would be able to better predict the lead time sweep of the muzzle resulting in a higher probability of tens.

I also agree that we shouldn't really be thinking about this while we shoot! At least not for extended training sessions.

I experienced 3 situation:
1. Sometimes, shooting 4-5 ten consecutively, after that, i don't remember "how" i have shoot (what sight i have sees, how i pulled trigger, and so on...); but it's ten.. I think it is subconscious, invited by deep concentration (so a mix cons-sub)

2. Sometimes, i shoot with very bad alignment, but finding this bad alignment is very stable, i only move aiming point up or down or right or left, and i arrive very close to ten or ten.

3. Find good alignment, approssimate on aiming point, hold the gun in direction of the target, and shoot with no interference on the hold.

For me:
Third method is the better way to shoot, and the more consistent. Repeating 3 is the only way to have a time-stable answer on the score.
First situation is a direct consequence of the many hours of training with 3. It will arrives alone, helping us on peak performance.
Second situation is fortune: don't use it, waits for it and prepares with the 3.

Resuming: shoot and trains as mechanical affination of a perfect sequence, the subconscious will come outside alone when it is the moment. It will arrive to you only on very (but very very very.. very ) high score, don't ask for it when there is no reason.
IMHO.