TargetTalk

Most people when they get right down to it, spend WAY too much time and effort worrying about the relationship of the sight to the target.

I work on the best shooting coming from my eye looking hard at the front sight and holding it as aligned with the rear sight as possible. Also learning when to start the trigger and not stopping it (unless your process is broken) trumps the target. I find that the same effort and techniques that control my sights being lined up front and rear also drags the aiming point (area) and stability right along with it.

I shoot bullseye and an Hammerli 480K2 AP

Patrick Haynes wrote:Hi folks.

Here's the kicker: under load (stress), the programs intermix. The program streams will cross. Instead of monitoring right and left deviations as the athlete lowers the pistol, the athletes produce right and left deviations as they lower the pistol. Its known as the Ironic Effect.

Why do I have faith in this? We had the SCATT running and her asked me to perform two tasks:
1. lower the pistol and control the right/left deviation - perform/deliver three shots
2. Deliver three shots and control the height of the shot placement.

Guess what:
1. When I was controlling the right/left deviations, I produced a nice horizontal (r/l) string.
2. When I was controlling height, I produced a very nice vertical (up/down) string.

Exactly what I was trying to control/avoid, is what I produced. Ironic, huh?

Ever tried to "not snatch the trigger" only to do exactly that same thing? Ironic, huh?
Patrick

Excuse all the snipping.

I believe the reason is not quite a complex as you make out. It is often said the subcosncious is effectively a 3 year old child. It can follow instructions but doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.

In your examples you are telling the subconscious not to snatch for example. That is interpreted as do snatch. Ditto for 'don't move left and right'.

That is one of the fundamental reasons behind remaining positive and concentrating on what you want to acheive and not what you want to avoid.

I'm way, way behind you on the coaching scale and I only coach at club level and/or junior pony club tetrathlon shooters, but I do really believe the major hurdle for high levels athletes resides between their ears.

Rob.

Steve Swartz wrote:Mike:

1) train the trigger so it becomes 100% perfect in not disturbing the sights; smooth, positive, uninterrupted and straight to the rear.

2) train the "sight picture" so that only alignment (front to rear sight) is maintained with 100% intensity; physical focus on front sight, mental focus on keeping sights aligned (NOT in any way "in the context of the target")


1&2 are Perfectly said except "straight to the rear" is kind of redundant with "not disturbing the sights". The mental side cannot IMO handle a physical act, "straight to the rear", and it's goal, "not disturbing the (aligned) sights", at the same time.

Simplify.







Then

Execute a shot plan that quickly and simply gets your aligned front sights "settled" in the aiming "area." Here's the part that's hard: when the ALIGNED sights are SETTLED in the aiming AREA, give yourself permission to initiate the trigger release.

Here I would change it to:
"when the ALIGNED sights are SETTL[ING] in[to] the aiming AREA, give yourself permission to initiate the trigger release."

Also giving "permission" seems like steps at a time. Just do it. Bring it all together in the center. (and I don't necessarily mean center hold either. I mean at the front sight. :)







Over thousands of repetitions, your subconscious will learn how to piece together the lag time from trigger initiation to release of shot (dwell time or total lock time) vs. the movement of the perfectly aligned sights (indicating muzzle position) over the sighting area.

As the Marine Corps says: "You only have to know how to do one thing and one thing only: Sight Alignment and Trigger Control."

Steve Swartz

jack h

I thought I'd move the discussion with new material to a new post, which I'm sure you have all notied by now. But I am also studying the material suggested by JP, and checking this thread from time to time. I do recall having read these before, but it is good to return to them after having gained some experience.

I just thought I'd add something from one of the articles:

Anatoliy Piddubnyy wrote:Third, when lowering the pistol to the Shooting zone, start the movement of the index finger, without interrupting it until you release the shot, and then a little more.

All comments welcome...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

I have taken shots on occasion where the gun drops too low and as I bring it up the gun goes off and usually a nice shot. The upward movement or maybe the lowering of the gun, as some recommend, may remove the left to right horizontal movement of the gun and allows for only vertical movement. Maybe I should work on this as I have thought about it many times. Very interesting!

I shoot only center hold. Justifycation is as follows. I belive{cant prove it ] that the eye can deal very precisely with geometric relationships. That is it can do a better job of finding the center of the bull as compared to resolving the line of whits on a sub six or a six oclock hold.furthurmore the training for center hold is reasonably straight forward. Draw a fuzzy round ball and super impose perfectly allighnd sights with the top of the sights dead cemter.on the representation of a properly out of focus bull Hold your pistol with your shooting grip, Start a smothe steadily increasing pressure on the trigger, and focus on the picture of aligned sights with the same intensity as if you were firing a record shot.

An opportune time for me to ask a question that has been bugging me for ages.
With the words ‘front sight focus’ and ‘total disregard of the target’ firmly
cemented into my thought process – I’m just wondering what we are really supposed to ‘see’ – in total?
Some report looking so intently at the front sight – that this is the only
picture – so intense that I read somewhere that one shooter has a small
white cross on the front sight to enhance the focus. Others report seeing the even gaps around the front sight – both sides and the top. The good advice on this forum continually emphasizes the need for ‘perfect sight alignment’ – but do we each ‘see’ this in a different way?
What I see is very much like a camera perched behind my rear sight.
I see all along my arm – see the back of my hand holding the pistol and
then all along to the front sight. My ‘picture’ is the front sight aligned perfectly within the rear sight – but viewed at a distance. Very much like the video picture someone posted here many months ago of some rapid fire shooting.
My scores (AP only) aren’t that crash hot!! Ranging 520 to 545. Maybe that’s why – I haven’t got the right ‘picture’??? What do you see????

I'd like to know your opinion, people, on what the trigger release should be a function of.

1) If we assume that we cannot predict stability and the random movement variables, the function of the trigger control becomes solely dependent on the sight picture and nothing else. I.E. if sight picture is good enough / approaches good - trigger release should follow and anything else be damned.

2). Assume that we can somewhat predict random movement of the sights (not the particular direction, just the fact that the sight picture is likely deteriorate in the next half a second, or the opposite - remain still and controlled in the next moment). Based on that, if the subconscious feels that something is off and that we are unlikely to maintain proper sight picture in the near future (even though it might be OK at the moment), the subconscious red-flags the trigger release and we get the all too common chicken-finger, at which point the conscious takes a hint and restarts. If we don't take a hint, however, the results are disastrous more often than not.


Which scenario do you you think is more advantageous?
How do you isolate training for either scenario?

Hmmm . . . .

Or

- If we maintain perfect alignment (a conscious process) we will be able to see with our eye where the muzzle is pointed. (If we don't maintain perfect sight alignment, where the muzzle is pointed becomes a complex relationship between aim and alignment and we can't really "see" where muzzle is pointed directly)

- We can watch where the muzzle is pointed as it tracks across the face of the target; prior to settle this movement is "somewhat less predictable" however, once settled this wobble becomes slower and more consistent- hence "somewhat more predictable" ("Predictable" ONLY to our subconscious; consciously, we can't ever think fast enough to "time" or predict squat)

- After shot-calling many thousands of times- assuming our "system lock time" (from mental initiation to pellet exiting muzzle) is absolutely perfect (i.e. perfect, and perfectly consistent, trigger control)- our subconscious "learns" how many milliseconds to "lead" the muzzle as it approaches the deep ten release point.

Corollaries:

- Trigger must be absolutely perfect
- System Lock Time doesn't have to be fast, just consistent (although relationship between wobble and lock time implies that faster, as long as consistency is equal, might be better)


Therefore, we must train for

- Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation while maintaining perfect sight alignment (pumping/dry firing the trigger while maintaining perfect alignment against a neutral (blank) background)

- Learning the total system lock time (same exercise as above, but with live fire against the neutral/blank background)

- Recognize and seek to achieve stability of settle as quickly as possible (holding alignment against neutral surface; holding alignment against bull target background)

- Putting dynamic system together (pumping trigger/dry firing against bull target background; and a moderate amount of same with live fire)

Steve Swartz

Life - Cogito ergo sum.

Shooting - Cogito ergo miss.

Once the process starts, if you think, put the gun down...

Tillman

If I follow this correctly the original issue was wobble and how best to even it out. Not withstanding the many great posts on rythm, sight alignment, and trigger control I didn't see much on one of the most fundimental aspects of a stable shooting platform; STANCE.

Each person's stance is going to be unique to that person. Naturally, they can and will all look different. However, every stance should be based on several key points.

Comfort- comfort from relaxed muscles and even weight distribution on the feet. Unstrained muscles reduce fatigue and lenthen that "sweet spot" where concentration, vision, and muscle control are at their best. I have watched a lot of new shooters and shooters from other diciplines try to shoot precision with a tactical or two handed stance. When I'm working with a new shooter finding a comfortable and stable single handed stance is step one.

Natural alignment- How many precision shooters take the time to align their natural point of aim with the target. Not to many new shooters even understand the concept. Rapid fire shooters and even trap shooters understand the advantage of not having to fight your own body when it comes to breaking a rapid and accurate string of shots.

A technique I use and teach is to establish your stance then find out where your natural aim is in relation to the target. Do this by raising your arm as if to shoot but without the pistol in your hand and your eyes closed. When you believe you are aimed at the target, open your eyes and look where you are pointed. If you are left or right of the target reposition your feet to get pointed at the target. Keep your stance the same just shift your feet.

The next step is to place your pistol in your hand. Repeat the steps above except when you open your eyes look to see how your sights are aligned. If the sights don't line up then reposition the pistol in your grip. Hands swell and shrink, moisture content in the wood makes grips feel different, how well rested or recent physical activity all change the way you grip your pistol. Bottom line on this is you will never grip your pistol exactly the same way twice. You may be very close and that is what you are striving for; consistency. The sight check is just a tool to help achieve that consistency. Anything that can put your mind at ease during competition is a plus. These simple steps are visual and habitual clues to ensuring your body and pistol are 90% aimed before you ever begin your first shot. They will also reduce wobble induced by muscle fatigue and fighting your body's natural aim.

A recent development in my life that is also worth mentioning is my episode with degenerative disks. The therapy for a bad back, once you regain some semblance of a human posture again, is to develop and strengthen the core support muscles. These are the muscles down the back and in line with the spine and the lower abdominal muscles. After you gain some strength and control of those muscles you expand to target the "lesser included" muscles that stabilize your spine and pelvis. I only add this because I have noticed a dramatic decrease in my own instability as I work my way through the therapy. The natural progression is to work through and develpo all the muscles that influence the pelvis and spine (ie legs).

I have a pin sized dot of white paint on my front sight post. It is the size of the pin point (not the head). It serves one purpose; absolute focus and concentration on the front sight. If I don't see that tiny white dot I stop the firing process. I stop because I have learned that I am doing one of the following:
1) not concentrating on the front sight
2) holding too long for the perfect shot
3) broken my breathe, raise, sight, squeeze, follow-through rythm and have reduce my MAOM. Its easy to tell when this happens because the first thing I do is lose focus on the tiny white dot. Lack of oxygen from holding your breath to long also affects fine muscle control (what you use to keep the rest of your hand still while aggresively increasing preasure on the trigger)

I use a center hold. I use the optical illusion to its maximum capacity. I keep my pistol zeroed on the top of my front sight blade. I know that where I aim is exactly where I'll hit (if I don't jerk, slap, pull, or heal the trigger).

I swear by, teach, and preach that aggresive trigger pull is the key. I've seen it written about in just about every response. I start my trigger pull as I'm settling down into the black. My mental "mantra" is front sight, in the black, trigger squeeze. I use a dual stage trigger and take up the slack on the way down. Once I have clear view of the white dot on the front sight I'll maintain position in the black as I increase pressure on the trigger. Aggresive trigger pull IS a matter of trust and practice. You have to trust your stance, your zero, your grip, your trigger finger placement, and the optical illusion. You have to practice aggressively pulling the trigger without slapping, pulling (to the inside), pushing, jerking, or healing the trigger through the break. The best technique I've found for achieving this is just letting the gun go off. It should be a surprise every time.

There is no great secret to a good shot. Above is what works for me. I hope you find something useful in all that. Good shooting,

Phil

A lot of great stuff on this thread - food for thought and more.

My original post was way-back-when and things have changed a bit since then.

I now have a coach who immediately identified a 1001 problems with my stance. I am now much more stable.
Grip next. Now much better.

Then we began to analyse my behaviour (yeah, yeah, I know Steve has been banging on about this for ages). So now I focus on my actions, not on the outcomes.

Several sessions on the Scatt helped us identify other problems.

And the end result? Well there is still some movement, obviously, but I now feel comfortable about my process, and am much better at analysing useful and useless tweaks.

My scores have followed my behavioural focus and continue to improve.

And can I say, finally, that threads like this on this forum have been a great help and important impetus for my improvement.

The mental thought process must be progressive. exactly the same for each shot, totally positive throughout, and in the exact rythem of the physical act required to deliver the shot on target. The shooter must never wander mentally.BUT INSTEAD STAY FOCUSSED ON THE TASK AT HAND.I believe its a good idea to do a core dump before going on the firing line and deal only with how you shoot your best shots, Read Lanny Bashams comments about the ultimate you concept. Should you lose concentration step back off the line if possible and regroup. shoot tens Bill Horton