Well, I was really curious because what a few of you have been saying (about incredible holds of top shooters) didn't jibe with what I have seen in my short experience with the shooting sports. Since I have nowhere near the experience of many of you, who have been competitng and coaching for years, I needed to see what you were talking about.
So I downloaded Gontcharov's Scatt file and the Scatt software. I highly recommend EVERYONE do this and analyze the tracings from teh top shooters tehy have available on their web site.
[while I am a Rika guy for the last few years, I think the Scatt software might have some desirable features over the Rika]
Now I'm *really* confused.
Peering at his MAP 586 (personal reasons for choosing that one) from 2001, I note that (with some exceptions):
- He holds the gun up there for a relatively long time (comapred to me)
- He settles fairly quickly, then every 3 seconds or so has an 8- ring excursion; then settles again, etc.
- When settled, he has a 9-ring hold with 1-2 sec bouts of 9.5+
- He does ocasionally see a 1 second ten-ring hold- but hardly ever breaks the shot inside that "micro settle" (!?)
- When he shoots an 8 (or a 9, for that matter), it is when he breaks the shot while hold is in one of the "excursions" away from center
- When he shoots a ten, it is when the hold is "snugging in" to the ten ring
Given a 150-250 ms "mental/total lock time," this would mean that:
1) When he shoots a bad shot, it is because he commanded release when the sight picture was perfect, and
2) When he shoots a good shot, it is because he commanded release when teh sight picture was not-quite-yet perfect but improving
The personal good news (for me) is that my "8-ring" hold isn't the problem.
My problem is the ability to TRUST THE PROCESS and focus on perfecting alignment while settled, and allowing the shot to break subconsciously. And NOT BEING DISTRACTED BY SIGHT PICTURE!
But then again, my analysis of the shot tracings are most assuredly biased because I am probably reading into it what I want to see, in order to validate my own perception of what a proper shot process is.
But an *objective* analysis of the shot tracings can't ignore the size of the wobble, and the percent time spent in ten ring . . .
Anyhow
If this post sounds like an adult version of "Nyanie Nyanie Boo Boo" or some such I apologize.
But either I am seriously underestimating the quality of my own hold- or many of my highly respected Target Talk colleagues are seriously overestimating the importance of hold.
Either way, I'm probably sounding like an arrogant ass about this . . . *
Steve Swartz
[*maybe because I honestly believe this is probably the most critical, and widely misunderstood, aspect of the proper shot process? And for me, the breakthough about not worrying about hold or sight picture was such a stunning- and ephemeral- revelation that I feel the urge to proseletyze about it ad nauseum?]
Air Pistol Training to improve hold time
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John Ariani
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:25 pm
Bryan - good suggestion. I've sent an email to SCATT.
Steve - your post provides good thought provoking info, especially in relation to what we see and how we interpret it.
PLEASE - Steve and others can I ask that you make mention of the "trigger squeeze" question in my original post. Surely Vladmir's trigger squeeze does not commence as he enters his settle area!!!!??
I've had a look at the same 60 shots that Steve analysed. (MAP586 - year 2001)
Here's how I see it.
Quote from Steve:But an *objective* analysis of the shot tracings can't ignore the size of the wobble, and the percent time spent in ten ring . . .
On virtuall all of his 60 shots his time in the 10 ring is substancial.(one, two even three seconds-as a total time of being in there/be it travelling in and out) In fact the 10 ring gets 'squibbled out' on most occassions, showing just how much time he spends there. Plenty of opportunity for a 10 score.
Even Vladmir's worst shot (an 8.8) shows 95% of the 10 ring squibbled out. No arguement with Steve about the reason the 8 was scored - but I'm looking at the hold. In this particular shot he spent 9.2 seconds holding mostly in the 9 and 10 ring.
But I'm mostly interested in the trigger application for a shooter who scores 586 and his shortest shot process time is 12 seconds (just twice, both 10's and entering/staying in the 9 and 10 ring for over 8 seconds each time)
His longest shot process time was 28 seconds, also with one for 27 seconds and three for 26 seconds. All were 10's. All show him entering the settling area (I've estimated that to be when the trace enters the 9 ring) and spending 13.5 seconds or more there prior to the shot release.
I'd just love to have some idea from others on what goes on in the head for that period of time and what the trigger finger is doing.
So much is written about the length of time our concentration is able to operate at peak - and how long our eyes are good for intense focus of the front sight before becoming blurry and out of focus - yet a 20 second plus hold with a score of 10 each time appears contradictory.
The SCATT summary shows his average shot process time for all 60 shots as 19.7 seconds. His average time for all 60 shots of the trace entering the 9 ring is about 12 - 14 seconds.
In summary - I've learned all I know about this sport from this forum. I've been trying to apply the basic important principles. Those being:
Align the sights and settle into the aiming area. Keep the sights aligned while maintaining intense focus on the front sight AND give permission to the subconscious to apply continuous uninterupted pressure to the trigger for the surprise shot.
Just one question, In your opinion -
Is this what Vladmir is doing?
Steve - your post provides good thought provoking info, especially in relation to what we see and how we interpret it.
PLEASE - Steve and others can I ask that you make mention of the "trigger squeeze" question in my original post. Surely Vladmir's trigger squeeze does not commence as he enters his settle area!!!!??
I've had a look at the same 60 shots that Steve analysed. (MAP586 - year 2001)
Here's how I see it.
Quote from Steve:But an *objective* analysis of the shot tracings can't ignore the size of the wobble, and the percent time spent in ten ring . . .
On virtuall all of his 60 shots his time in the 10 ring is substancial.(one, two even three seconds-as a total time of being in there/be it travelling in and out) In fact the 10 ring gets 'squibbled out' on most occassions, showing just how much time he spends there. Plenty of opportunity for a 10 score.
Even Vladmir's worst shot (an 8.8) shows 95% of the 10 ring squibbled out. No arguement with Steve about the reason the 8 was scored - but I'm looking at the hold. In this particular shot he spent 9.2 seconds holding mostly in the 9 and 10 ring.
But I'm mostly interested in the trigger application for a shooter who scores 586 and his shortest shot process time is 12 seconds (just twice, both 10's and entering/staying in the 9 and 10 ring for over 8 seconds each time)
His longest shot process time was 28 seconds, also with one for 27 seconds and three for 26 seconds. All were 10's. All show him entering the settling area (I've estimated that to be when the trace enters the 9 ring) and spending 13.5 seconds or more there prior to the shot release.
I'd just love to have some idea from others on what goes on in the head for that period of time and what the trigger finger is doing.
So much is written about the length of time our concentration is able to operate at peak - and how long our eyes are good for intense focus of the front sight before becoming blurry and out of focus - yet a 20 second plus hold with a score of 10 each time appears contradictory.
The SCATT summary shows his average shot process time for all 60 shots as 19.7 seconds. His average time for all 60 shots of the trace entering the 9 ring is about 12 - 14 seconds.
In summary - I've learned all I know about this sport from this forum. I've been trying to apply the basic important principles. Those being:
Align the sights and settle into the aiming area. Keep the sights aligned while maintaining intense focus on the front sight AND give permission to the subconscious to apply continuous uninterupted pressure to the trigger for the surprise shot.
Just one question, In your opinion -
Is this what Vladmir is doing?
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Steve Swartz
John:
Good points- however- as you note, he may spend 10 seconds out of 15 close enough to score a 10 (not in the ten ring per se, but close enough for the shot value to be a 10), those 10 seconds are not "contiguous" ie he is wobbling in and out.
Also
His percent time in 10 value is better than most- 80% is a good threshold for a 570 shooter- so why do we see 540 shooters with an 80% time in ten statistics, and then a 580 shooter with an 80% time in ten statistic?
Obviously, "quality of hold" is irrelevant. See my (and others; e.g. Ed Hall) previous posts on hte matter.
As to why he is watching 20 tens go by before squeezing off the 21st ten, beats the crap out of me. I have no idea what he is doing. Some really good shooters do tend to hang their gun up there for a while. maybe reciting some mantra to get in the zone?
Admiring his hold perhaps? =8^)
(old USAF pistol team phrase for "chicken finger")
Steve
Good points- however- as you note, he may spend 10 seconds out of 15 close enough to score a 10 (not in the ten ring per se, but close enough for the shot value to be a 10), those 10 seconds are not "contiguous" ie he is wobbling in and out.
Also
His percent time in 10 value is better than most- 80% is a good threshold for a 570 shooter- so why do we see 540 shooters with an 80% time in ten statistics, and then a 580 shooter with an 80% time in ten statistic?
Obviously, "quality of hold" is irrelevant. See my (and others; e.g. Ed Hall) previous posts on hte matter.
As to why he is watching 20 tens go by before squeezing off the 21st ten, beats the crap out of me. I have no idea what he is doing. Some really good shooters do tend to hang their gun up there for a while. maybe reciting some mantra to get in the zone?
Admiring his hold perhaps? =8^)
(old USAF pistol team phrase for "chicken finger")
Steve
I still havent watched the scatt, should down load to this computer, was on about 5 computers ago!
I imagine this guy is russian, therefore I suspect he fires the shot several times before he commits to it. if he had the trigger sensor connected this would show that. it would probably also show he takes up 70-80% weight and holds it.
then release, hold etc possibly 3 times or more before commiting to the last 20%.
best to ask him!
there are always exeptions to the rules, understanding the russian etc coaching system would help you understand why so many exeptions come from there.
for none 590 shooters, I would train a short hold/abort system, but if he holds 30 sec, then shoots a good shot, dont try to fix it!
steve, sorry for picking.
still think you are wrong re-where the shot lands, but does it matter?
he is working on one shot, he hasnt missed 20 tens, he is ensuring the one in the barrel is a ten.
suprised you asked why can you get a 540-580 with the same hold.
if you have an 80% hold, and not shooting 580, you will have little benifit working on a 85% hold.
the hold is not the problem.
imho
bryan
I imagine this guy is russian, therefore I suspect he fires the shot several times before he commits to it. if he had the trigger sensor connected this would show that. it would probably also show he takes up 70-80% weight and holds it.
then release, hold etc possibly 3 times or more before commiting to the last 20%.
best to ask him!
there are always exeptions to the rules, understanding the russian etc coaching system would help you understand why so many exeptions come from there.
for none 590 shooters, I would train a short hold/abort system, but if he holds 30 sec, then shoots a good shot, dont try to fix it!
steve, sorry for picking.
still think you are wrong re-where the shot lands, but does it matter?
he is working on one shot, he hasnt missed 20 tens, he is ensuring the one in the barrel is a ten.
suprised you asked why can you get a 540-580 with the same hold.
if you have an 80% hold, and not shooting 580, you will have little benifit working on a 85% hold.
the hold is not the problem.
imho
bryan
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Siwarin
I agree that the trigger is surely important. but I saw many scatt files of world class/national/club shooters. I "never" see any quite good hold (9-ring hold) shooters shoot below 565 in SCATT (not mention that 540)Steve Swartz wrote: Obviously, "quality of hold" is irrelevant. See my (and others; e.g. Ed Hall) previous posts on hte matter.
I believe that body stability is important. Trigger is trained to not disturb that stability. sight alignment is focused because if we focus on target or check the relationship between sights and target. the hold pattern will change from outside-inside to inside-outside.
If anyone has it, please send me the files. I really want to study it.
siwarin@hotmail.com
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Siwarin
Sorry my email is siwarin@gmail.comSiwarin wrote:I agree that the trigger is surely important. but I saw many scatt files of world class/national/club shooters. I "never" see any quite good hold (9-ring hold) shooters shoot below 565 in SCATT (not mention that 540)Steve Swartz wrote: Obviously, "quality of hold" is irrelevant. See my (and others; e.g. Ed Hall) previous posts on hte matter.
I believe that body stability is important. Trigger is trained to not disturb that stability. sight alignment is focused because if we focus on target or check the relationship between sights and target. the hold pattern will change from outside-inside to inside-outside.
If anyone has it, please send me the files. I really want to study it.
siwarin@gmail.com
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Goran
That is a ridiculous statement. Steady hold is an extremly important factor to be able to constantly shoot tens. Work on your hold and you will see improvements. With a steady hold its also much easier to release the shot in a good way, ie careful trigger release. Why? Because you can act in a more confident way, more agressive, when sights are alligned and wobble zone is small.Steve Swartz wrote:
Obviously, "quality of hold" is irrelevant. See my (and others; e.g. Ed Hall) previous posts on hte matter.
Steve
/Goran
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Steve Swartz
Taken out of context, yes, it is a ridiculous statement.
Taken in context, it is a startling epiphany.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. to Bryan: it was a rhetorical question. I think I know exactly how two shooters with the same exact hold area and pattern can shoot v ery different scores. Scrub shooter is releasing the shot "on purpose" when he sees a good sight picture. WC shooter accepts the hold and allows hte release of the shot. One drops a shot "on the way out" the other drops the shot "on the way in.")
(p.s. to Bill Horton: we had a great amount of bandwidth between Ed Hall and myself with others thrown in for good measure on the "trigger drives sights" vs. "sights drive trigger" approaches. While I appreciate your strong opinion on the matter [I have a bunch of those myself; e.g. strong opinions], I don't believe anyone referred to any "Magic" [as you claim]; I would have remembered an appeal to "mystic forces" in our discussion. And, as I have mentioned more recently, I think we got to a point where we realized that we were probably talking about simply two different ways of expressing the exact same thing! Perhaps we should re-open the discussion in a new thread if you are interested in kicking it around some more?]
Taken in context, it is a startling epiphany.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. to Bryan: it was a rhetorical question. I think I know exactly how two shooters with the same exact hold area and pattern can shoot v ery different scores. Scrub shooter is releasing the shot "on purpose" when he sees a good sight picture. WC shooter accepts the hold and allows hte release of the shot. One drops a shot "on the way out" the other drops the shot "on the way in.")
(p.s. to Bill Horton: we had a great amount of bandwidth between Ed Hall and myself with others thrown in for good measure on the "trigger drives sights" vs. "sights drive trigger" approaches. While I appreciate your strong opinion on the matter [I have a bunch of those myself; e.g. strong opinions], I don't believe anyone referred to any "Magic" [as you claim]; I would have remembered an appeal to "mystic forces" in our discussion. And, as I have mentioned more recently, I think we got to a point where we realized that we were probably talking about simply two different ways of expressing the exact same thing! Perhaps we should re-open the discussion in a new thread if you are interested in kicking it around some more?]
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Guest
What are you trying to say Steve? In what context? Why do I get the feeling that you are just trying to master us with your overly complicated sentences and words?
Saying that quallity of hold is irrelevant is ridicilous when put in any possible context.
Steve, with all respect, loose up that tie around your neck a bit and make your posts a little less academic, and a little more understandable. There are a lot of people here that does not speak native english. (like me)
/Goran
Saying that quallity of hold is irrelevant is ridicilous when put in any possible context.
Steve, with all respect, loose up that tie around your neck a bit and make your posts a little less academic, and a little more understandable. There are a lot of people here that does not speak native english. (like me)
/Goran
I think "irrelevent " might have been a little too strong of word. I agree with what I beleive his contention is, is that hold after a certain point has diminishing returns. I've been amazed by how much some of the world class shooters actually move when I stood behind them, yet they still hit 10 after 10 after 10.
When starting out you do have to work on developing a good "hold" (but I still beleive that it will never be still and see no reason to even strive for such).
When starting out you do have to work on developing a good "hold" (but I still beleive that it will never be still and see no reason to even strive for such).
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Steve Swartz
Goran:
Sorry for the confusion- not intended- and no "mysticism" intended either. A better explanation (I hope) below:
You are standing on the line, during a match, and your coach says "Tighten up your hold!"
Possible or not? At that point, can you do anything to make your hold better? At that moment, the hold you see is the hold you are going to get- it is a constant, and therefore irrelavnt (out of your control).
Also
See Richard's post above. See a variety of Scatt/Rika traces. See a 540 shooter with the same hold "diameter" as a 570 shooter . . . and explain now why hold is so important?
Something else must be more important than hold, for it to not make a difference.
O.K., obviously hold isn't "irrelevant;" perhaps a longer description like "a hold that spends a lot of time in the 10 ring is unnecessary to shoot a lot of tens reliably" would have been more accurate.
No mumbo jumbo, no desire to confuse (or impress?) anyone.
It's all about each of us shooting to his or her best potential. And it's all about not wasting precious training time on things that frankly don't matter all that much.
Sorry for the confusion.
Steve Swartz
Sorry for the confusion- not intended- and no "mysticism" intended either. A better explanation (I hope) below:
You are standing on the line, during a match, and your coach says "Tighten up your hold!"
Possible or not? At that point, can you do anything to make your hold better? At that moment, the hold you see is the hold you are going to get- it is a constant, and therefore irrelavnt (out of your control).
Also
See Richard's post above. See a variety of Scatt/Rika traces. See a 540 shooter with the same hold "diameter" as a 570 shooter . . . and explain now why hold is so important?
Something else must be more important than hold, for it to not make a difference.
O.K., obviously hold isn't "irrelevant;" perhaps a longer description like "a hold that spends a lot of time in the 10 ring is unnecessary to shoot a lot of tens reliably" would have been more accurate.
No mumbo jumbo, no desire to confuse (or impress?) anyone.
It's all about each of us shooting to his or her best potential. And it's all about not wasting precious training time on things that frankly don't matter all that much.
Sorry for the confusion.
Steve Swartz