TargetTalk

Two quick thoughts:

1) As to abort: I *don't* have a conscious process looking for abort. If I did, a) I might abort more often when I should, and b) I would need to abort more often.

Yeah, it's one of them conundrum things.

Here's what does happen: I enter the deep during settle or I abort, simple as that. Works most of the time; I am looking for a certain mental state and if it doesn't arrive, PTFGD.

So let's say I do enter the deep, and the release phase begins. Eventually, 1 of two things happen: I release a deep ten, that snaps me out of it, and I recover. OR I slowly begin to become aware that I am settled, aligned, and holding, and nothing has happened yet.

*At That Point*

I either consciously manipulate the process and "throw a brick" 9 (bad) OR wrestle a scratch 10 out of it (worse!).

O.K.

2) Match management: even during training, my metric is (see above) "Did I enter the deep and release a shot subconsciously" Let's call that a "successful trial." The alternative where I correctly abort is a "not failed trial." Any alternative is a "failed trial." I will shoot for (pun intended) a comfort zone of successful trials during warm up (oops "sighters") and then go to match mode. Once in match mode, I will execute the shot process as long as I have successful or not failed trials.

1) if a couple of not failed trials in a row, take a standing break.
2) if a failed trial, take a standing break and assess the situation
3) if a couple of failed trials within 5 or so shots of each other, sit down

Note that none of this has any awareness of shot values beyond the initial sighters. I will, however, assess the centroid of shot pattern at first sit down break (usually 20 shots or so).

I used to do something similar, but used shot value as my measure of success. I found that to be somewhat too "exciting" whenever I shot either above- or below- expectations. Which was pretty much every match.

I strongly believe now that the key is not where the holes go, but whether my behaviors were correct. This is the *only* way I can shoot up to my potential in every match.

Some days, my potential seems to be higher than others . . . that's the next step. Getting my "potential" to be a consistently higher number.

Aside: Scoring every shot in a training match in tenths is a very interesting measure of performance. I have shot really crappy 570s and really excellent 570s. When we regularly start shooting 600s, we should go to a tenths system. Of course, only for the matches where automated scoring is possible . . .

Steve Swartz

A message filled with excellence! Super points all around!

True that if you had a conscious abort search engaged, you would abort more, but more importantly, you wouldn't be allowing the unimpeded flow of the perfect shot. I hold the belief that although aborting when needed is a good thing, the optimum is to complete the process. The abort should come from the subconscious due to its not being able to perform the perfect action, and should be picked up on as you describe, by noticing the shot didn't happen. This should be an immediate abort. The pinnacle of success would be the subconscious being able to correct the deficiency on the fly and take the shot. Aborts are a lack of perfection in the process. I'm not sure I'm bringing my thoughts forward on this, but although it's good to recognize the abort signal from the subconscious, it is still a failure in some portion of the process.

Excellent read that the scratch ten is worse than the nine.

Questions, again (random, as before):

Do you approach each shot from the same true beginning as the first shot fired?

Do all breaks (or even shots) include total release and regrasp of the gun?

Why do you not believe your potential is 600?
- When do you form this potential belief?

I strongly believe now that the key is not where the holes go, but whether my behaviors were correct.

Copied because it bears repeating! 100% correct! The only thing you have any true control over is your behaviors.

The tenths scoring you mention is also of interest. I have seen large differences in some of my Rika scores comparing the two sometimes. Those days when all the shots seem to just miss the ring. You'd swear if they were scored in hundredths, they'd be 9.99.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Jeeze Ed, you are wearing me out! Making me think very hard about a lot of things. That's a good thing (just not during shooting!). Apologies in advance for the length of reply.

Hey Scott- good thing Ed and I don't have to "pay by the word!"

Hope this ethereal, philosophical type conversation is helping someone- anyone- out there and we aren't just having a private conversation!!

The subconscious abort: gotta think about that one.

Approaching each shot from a "true" beginning: gotta ponder on that one some more. Conditions change, both internally and externally. I try to establish the same internal "state of mind" at the beginning of my shot process: if I am too relaxed, I use autosuggestion to increase intensity and vice versa. I allow distracting thoughts to enter, then clear them out. Physically, my state of alertness, tiredness, etc. will change ove the match. I have an "optimum" level of tiredness that is actually a little weaker than I might expect . . . I do better whn a little more physically tired, but more mentally intense. The two are related and this is a struggle.

Grips: relax and reset grip between shots as required to maintain constant contact and feel. Will re-establish grip as necessary; most "standing breaks" involve releasing gun and resetting. If it doesn't feel right, I fix it.

Potential of 600: Hmmm . . . rereading my post, I don't see where I actually said this was outside my potential; actually, I think I kind of hinted (but without sounding *too* arrogant) that 600 was possible for me at some point, and that 600+ could soon become "common" as for 10m air rifle. My personal belief is that I *will* shoot 600 (work, health, family, etc. willing) sometime (perhaps soon). I might not be the first guy to do it though. Somebody else may have already done it; just not at a registered match. I can't control what somebody else does . . .

On my Rika right now, satisfactory score performance is to average over 10.00 for 20 or so shot strings. My comment about raising potential is based on the following observations/propositions:

- Shooting "up to potential" in a string is defined as "every shot is a loved and wanted shot" ie the shot process is managed properly every single time (no "failures").

- In a typical series, I am able to achieve that 70%-80% of the time.

- Given a 75% success + not failure rate, the score performance is ~10.15 which equates to around 15 "good" processes out of 20, which results in 13 tens and 2 nines. The 5 "bad" processes result in 2 tens and 3 nines. Total out of 20 results in 15 tens and 5 nines. Estimate that if this is done for a complete match, the end score would be a 570.

That feels about right.

Extrapolate the "every shot is a loved and wanted shot" principle to estimate potential: 13 tens and 2 nines out of every 15 shots would result in a 592. That also matches up very closely with my personal experience.

So here's my point about potential: EVEN IF (when) I enter the deep for a successful subconscious release, I will still shoot 2 nines - very tight nines - out of 15 shots.

Where do these nines come from?

Steve Swartz

[NOTE: yeah, what I am talking about here is what happens when everything goes right. Yes, sometimes I totally explode in a flaming mass of confusion and can't seem to find my shot process with two hands and a flashlight. However, those days are 1) fewer in number; and 2) Now I know what causes them, and 3) the result of a total clusterf*&k day is now a 565+ instead of a 555-.]

Steve,
Very interesting read and very useful <mental prompt to print out and digest>. My only comment is on the relatively low number of good shots or perhaps more the description thereof. I suspect I will confuse you with my ramblings but I'll try not to <g>.

In the writings I pick up a fairly large amount of dissatisfaction in a lot of your shots. It feels to me like that is to the forefront or at least further upfront than it should be. One of the things I observe is that you can shoot a ten and be unhappy with it. That is fine in training, not in a mtach (IMHO). Sure you (we) can shoot technically bad ten but in the frame of mind of keeping positive the good result should be mentally applauded before clearing the mind for the next shot.

Like I said I could be missreading the signs here but you strike me as a perfectionist (that's meant in a good way). I feel you need more positive brain candy in your shooting competitions to make you feel great throughout the competitons.

Rob.

So here's my point about potential: EVEN IF (when) I enter the deep for a successful subconscious release, I will still shoot 2 nines - very tight nines - out of 15 shots.

Where do these nines come from?

Steve,
Shooting, like most processes, has a random component. That's why we often describe it in statistical terms. On average you may indeed shoot 200 nines and 1300 tens out of 1500 shots, but you may also have, within that 1500 shot sequence, a number of 60 shot sequences with zero nine's. I am sure you can calculate the probability of that occuring :-)

Fred

Hi Steve,

I'm glad we're not paying by the word, as well, but don't give Scott any ideas...(smile)

Remember that you are already experiencing subconscious aborts. Those are the ones where you consciously start realizing it didn't fire. You have a conscious choice at that point to take over and complete the process consciously or start again from the beginning. Now for some more thought in that area... I would suggest that you are quite right in taking a break if two of these happen in a row, but what about after the first one?

Let's break this into a scene of two persons working the gun. Person C will represent conscious and person S will represent subconscious. C performs the tasks of readying everything and hands over the process for completion to S. S has no direct communication back to C. S sees something not quite right in what s/he has been handed, so s/he doesn't complete. C starts to notice that S didn't finish and either takes control to complete or aborts and begins again.

Now let's suppose C establishes the exact same readying and hands the exact same conditions to S. S again will decide that things aren't correct for completion and wait for C to realize it. In this case, there is some parameter that was not met by C for the readying phase. Take this out further and if C keeps handing sub-par conditions to S, S will eventually go ahead and complete with less than required parameters met.

This is where the consious has to decide whether to complete the shot or not, based on whether it will be "good enough." But, once we accept "good enough" we've opened a door to lesser achievement. We may be forced to accept this if we can't make the readying acceptable to our subconscious. We have to be careful in what we tell our subconscious is OK. We can easily bring its level down to our new acceptance by consciously firing those it has turned back.

As we move more toward the idea of a "one-shot match" we can begin to see what starting from a true beginning is approaching. I know you've got data on this subject (smile), so a few more questions:

How often is your first record shot a ten?

How far into the series do you get before you notice the subconscious turning back shots?

If you are noticing aborts only somewhat into your series, what if you were to take your break before you had an abort issue?
- IOW, let's say at around shot 13 you average 30% abort rate by subconscious - whether you completed them consiously or truly aborted. What if using those data, you restructured your break to prior to shot twelve?

Some days, my potential seems to be higher than others . . . that's the next step. Getting my "potential" to be a consistently higher number.

You must be careful of what you tell yourself in all the areas. This to me seems like you're saying your potential is less than 600. Remember about how I recommend throwing "realism" out the window for your mental training. Your mental training should include the solid belief that you always execute perfect processes and they always score perfect hits. Leave realism behind in your mental training. This is why I ask, what would happen if you mentally scoped each shot and visualized it a ten instead of trying to be perfect in your call and then verifying something you called "out?" (I've had some good results when I've used this method.)

Arrogance and confidence are related, but not directly the same. However, an elite athlete must be careful not to put themself down even in joking or trying to be modest. Remember that the subconscious doesn't know the difference, or when to listen and when not to.

What is the most common response to, "Nice target!?" A vast majority of shooters will reply something like, "Yeah, but I probably can't back it up..." or, "If only they all looked like that..." What is their subconscous learning?

We have to strive for perfection, but realize we fall short. Sound familiar? But remember that we don't have to be truly perfect to achieve 600. We can actually be 8mm (almost 1/3 inch?) off in any direction...

Where do these nines come from?

They may be just happening, or within your subconscious definition of OK. If the latter is the case, how do we change the subconscious criteria to only tens? For one thing, we need to only accept tens, not something "good enough" that may result in less than a ten. We also need to focus on what we want through our mental training. Above that we need to realize that an occasional nine is not something to be concerned over, so don't spend any energy on it; let it die a lonely death as you put your energies into relishing the tens. IOW, focus on the tens and be patient.

My personal belief is that I *will* shoot 600 (work, health, family, etc. willing) sometime (perhaps soon).

You need to change this to:

My personal belief is that I *do* shoot 600 - it is my norm...

In hopes that Russ isn't correct in saying all this effort is wasted, I hope I have provided some material for thought that will help in your (and others') quest for the path and move you into the "every shot is a loved and wanted" realm.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Fred, Robb, Ed:

Great points all . . . that's why I love this forum! Great food for thought. No one person has all the answers; collectively, we probably have most of them though!

I really have to think about the dissatisfaction/potential points. Nobody ever accused me of being too modest . . . or humble . . . but I think I get what you mean.

This is related to Robbs answer about the random component as well.

Here's how it breaks down in my cranium: consider forhte sake of argument that the "physical" and "mental" aspects are somewhat separable. The physical aspects include the mechanics of technique involving the performance of the body against tasks. The driver here is consistency, repeatability, reducing variation in process. The mental aspects deal with our "management" of the process.

Even if our process management is perfect, we have physical constraints; e.g., a neurological disease preventing smooth trigger release or insufficient muscular endurance to wobble inside the black.

Even if our physuical capabilities are sufficient to shoot tens constantly, we have mental constraints; e.g. match jitters, not trusting the subconscious, etc.

In my training world, I am trying to increase my performance in both areas: mental performance will allow me to shoot at my physical potential. Physical performance will raise hte level of this potential.

Robb's answer ties in with my inability to eliminate as much variability out of my physical process as is required to shoot 600.

And Ed; man, you did it again- whacking me over the head with a *lot* to think about.

Generally, I exhibit perfect process typically from the first shot for many shots. I don't start picking up subconscious abort signals (typically) until around 6 or seven shots in . . .


. . . hmmmm.

Steve

Guys,

I think this is the best thread in a long time if not ever. Thank you all!

Steve Swartz wrote:Jack:

I wake up at 4:00 am and still get to work by 9:00 am. Family doesn't see my "away time" for training. Don't get to watch a lot of late-night TV . . .

Nano:

The key is work a long enough session to get training benefit. When you start a training activity, it will take you a few minutes to achieve a "value added" level of concentration/focus. Now you will have a peak amount of time when you are actually learning and making progress. Eventually, you will get less and less benefit as you tire. The question of exactly where that "training sweet spot" is over a training session will vary from individual to individual. For me, I stop "making money" if I train for more than 45 minutes or so.

Then you need to rest, relax, and do something else.

The amount of rest time you need before being able to get maximium benefit again (start another hihg-quality session) will also vary between individuals. If I keep my training sessions short (30 minutes) all I need is another 30 minutes or so reading email, watching news, eating breakfast, whatever and then am ready to jump back in again.

So theoretically, assuming I didn't have to work for a living (well, ok, be physically available at my place of employment!) I could start these 30 minute work-30 minute rest-30 minute work cycles for several hours per day.

Also consider that you can interweave physical training, mental training, and technique training back and forth little tighter (because they are dissimilar) than doing the same thing over and over.

Hope this is making sense?

Steve Swartz

This is one interesting thread!

As a beginner in shooting it appears to me that you think a lot about these things. But it sounds a bit complicated too, shooting is also easy and fun!

I love shooting and the great feeling of perfection, when I see the hole in the middle of the target. The natural place for the bullets are in the middle, because I have a desire to put them there, great teqnique, great gun, great ammo and it is easy and fun!

I try to simplify everything and shoot good shots as often as I can. I want my tens to be 10,9 and my nines to be 9,9. I belive that 600 is fully realistic, and when it is so easy to shoot one ten, I am certain that I can do that 60 times too. But my body and mental skills must be tuned to do this. I am just not ready yet. But for each good shot, my whole being as a person learns to shoot good. In my mind I feel like a champion, thinks like a champion and tries to act like a champion, because I want to be a champion! And for every day I grow into a champion!

Every time I climb up a pin on the ladder towards 600, is a step forward in skill and feels great! To shoot 600, shoot a new world/olympic record, win olympics and win world championships are dreamgoals that motivates me to strive forward every time I grip the pistol.

In that way I often feel lonely with my strong belief of what could be done. When I hear daily negative comments from people that dont have selfconfidence in their own ability or others ability, I "shut" my ears. I dont want to hear their bullshit! I often go into my own mind and think about all good shooting moments that lies ahead of me, I see myself shooting perfect tens, stand on podiums with a medal around my neck and I feel aroused and happy.

Steve and Ed and other contributors

Thank you for the online discussion, Steve and Ed made a couple of comments wondering if this discussion was of any use to anyone. I printed it off today and had a good look through it, and yes it is incredibly useful.

Thanks Ed for your insights and thank you Steve for being so open and honest. I will need some time to get to grips with some of Ed's thinking but I consider that to be a worthwhile exercise.

Well done on your lucid and well thought out postings

Mikey

Mikey:

Thanks for the kind words.

Guest:

Stay away from competitors who look at everything from the perspective of "what am I doing wrong." Their attitude ("error solving") is poison!

Steve