TargetTalk

For 3-P the tie breaker is kneeling >>IF<< there is no final, if there is a final, then standing shots are fired until a winner emerges.

In 4-H the 3-P is only a part of the competition ... only 1/3.

When you look at all the shots fired in a 4-H National event:
100/140 are standing: 72%
20/140 are kneeling: 14%
20/140 are prone: 14%

It is wise for a 4-H competitor who hopes to shoot in the Nationals to make sure that their standing position is the one they work the most on.
That said, they will not get into the top 10 with sloppy prone or kneeling positions ... they better be shooting high 80's or 90's in both to have a hope

Hi

It's also important to have a Silhouette rifle for the National event. We don't normallly shoot air rifle silhouette. I don't think the Kansas team even took anything but 888's.

Mike

cmj wrote:....He seems to have something against CO2, ie 888's . telling the kids it is a much more powerful and dangerous rifle. He has 2 Crossman 2000's, but wont use them, CO2 I guess. ....

Hi

I cut the stuff I wasn't commenting on. 888's and 853's, and Crosmans all three shoot pellets at roughly the same speed. Pellets are more accurate at around 500 feet per second, Avanti's (Daisy's) are TARGET rifles, therefore they all shoot at roughly the same speed. 888's aren't enough different to make a big difference.

I have a LOT against the Crosman 2000's, and we shoot ALL 888's, so it's not CO2. I don't like the Crosman 2000's because on the two we had, the stupid CO2 cartridges won't reliably puncture. We were taking the guns all of the way down every time we changed CO2. LOVE the adjustable stock, but we were always fixing them.

Mike
Wichita KS

[quote="mikeschroeder"]Hi

It's also important to have a Silhouette rifle for the National event. We don't normallly shoot air rifle silhouette. I don't think the Kansas team even took anything buy 888's.

Mike[/quote]

The NM State championship shot the silhouettes at 1/2 distance, so we could easily use our 888's with the aperture sights. We only found out about the 1/2 distance a week before the event.

Previously, we had tried to mount scopes on them, but scope mounts that are repeatably removable just are not there for the 3/8 rail. We were planning on borrowing a set of "silhouette guns" with scopes from the JRTOC guys. Also it was not good to try and adjust the elevation on the scopes. Very non-repeatable. Our best solution was to use a "mil-dot" style scope, center the sights for the turkeys at 36 yards, and hold over or under on the other distances. Since turkeys seem to be the hardest for my kids, this worked out pretty well.

So I agree ... separate rifle for silhouette.

I would suggest you take the leader training and then start your own club if you don't get along with the current club. It is not that hard to do and can be very rewarding. I run a small club and we focus on good shooting and fun both. Have several state records being held by club members and they have fun.

Our club does Pistol primarily but also Archery and Muzzle Loaders. In the last NMLRA one of our members set 2 new NMLRA Territorial records in the sub jr. Division in rifle. The training works!

There is a huge amount of club focus variation in 4-H. Don't let one bad experience color your perception of the whole. Some clubs do focus on competition and that is fine, others on just the very bare basics. Also fine. Find a club that fits your needs and if you can't start your own. It is easy.

Kelly ...

From what I've seen and heard of from other states is that it normally is not the club that drives the leaders and kids nutso, but the state officials/agents. The Shooting Sports is a small part of their responsibilities (I know I'm making excuses for them, but also trying to be fair)

If it is just the club, then I do agree, take the leader training, and go your own route. There are plenty of opportunities to shoot outside the 4-H realm, and it is good for kids to show up at a shoot with 20-30 lanes and shoot a USAS, CMP, or NRA competition. Kids from the 4-H world may not really know the difference between sporter and precision, and these are good times for them to see the "cool" guns.

Please tell me how that is relivat to any of this.

Jake152 wrote:Please tell me how that is relivat to any of this.

I suppose the relevance to the topic is the frustration a parent or project leader in 4-H has at times.

While I don't fault any who are giving in their time, efforts, and most probably their own money to teach kids, it would be very helpful if they would also keep up with current rules and training techniques.

Now there are coaches who will teach the Standing-Kneeling-Prone and some (like myself who begins with kids 8, 9, 10 years old) who feel that Bench, then prone is the best. These are coaching >>philosphies<<.

Those who don't keep up with the rules (they can, and do change yearly) can make competitions at all levels very frustrating. At our state match last year we had one official that had donated his time for the event that was still using a 1990's rule book ... he was amazed that mine was a 2004 version and things had changed.

Believe it or not there are some states where the state officials are like this ... in those cases, well... you have to play by their rules and because the events are not sanctioned, you really have no recourse. This is one reason why my 4-H kids shoot in JROTC matches and leagues, NRA sanctioned events, and CMP sanctioned events. Amazingly ... kids like the competition!

If the parents/leaders/and coaches are frustrated by the rules and rulings, you have to know that these kids are smart enough to pick up on that .... programs under these die unless you can go outside the bounds and generate that interest.

Hopefully that helps.

BTW ... I was very frustrated with my state's way of doing things for 4-H, but I became very thankful for what support I had after attending the coach conference this year. My state director is a supporter of the program I do, even though it is not the way the overall state runs. Some states are "simply amazing" in what seems to be their efforts to kill the programs ... and the leaders/parents and coaches are almost helpless.

Jake152 wrote:Please tell me how that is relivat to any of this.

It gives more information about overcoming the difficulties that leaders face and the challenges of running a competitive junior program.

That's basically the focus of the "Youth Shooting Programs" section.



Jay V
IL

Hi

We're having a rebuilding year, not the team, the equipment. We don't currently have any decent BB-Guns cut off, so we're teaching Air Pistol to the kids who are two small to shoot 888's. Works great so far. We may have to host a USAS Progressive Pistol match in the fall.

Mike
Wichita KS

Mike .... glad you're still in the game.....

How many adults do you have on the line .... I'd like to start my younger ones on Prog-pistol, but I usually have me (the coach) and another adult RO.

Right now I don't feel I have enough eyes to put pistols on the line.

Also .... does KS 4-H do progressive pistol or this a "let's just put the program together" thing for you?
(NM does not do PP)

jhmartin wrote:Mike .... glad you're still in the game.....

How many adults do you have on the line .... I'd like to start my younger ones on Prog-pistol, but I usually have me (the coach) and another adult RO.

Right now I don't feel I have enough eyes to put pistols on the line.

Also .... does KS 4-H do progressive pistol or this a "let's just put the program together" thing for you?
(NM does not do PP)

Hi Joel

I have two adults, but I have one (me) with the two Air Pistol shooters. They tend to wave more. With bigger kids it's no problem, but main problem with both air rifle and air pistol is that the smaller kids tend to wave the gun around while loading and cocking. When that gets over with, they're usually fine.

Kansas 4H has air pistol (and smallbore) in the state match, but not progressive pistol. In general, many of the state's clubs shoot in other organization's matches though.

Mike Schroeder
Wichita KS

The instructor you speak of, has problems. Just because he has a rifle program in your county, does not stop you (or anyone else) from starting your own 4H rifle program as well. That way you can implement your own ideas in your own program.

My son and I both had a love/hate relationship with 4H. The first coach (a volunteer) was old and set in his ways, the second year we got a new volunteer coach and it was a completely different program. It made a tremendous difference to my son, who almost quit after the first year. It was only the allure of moving up from BB to "precission pellet" that got him back.

I thought the 4H program here in Georgia was REALLY strange. No one in my urban county was interested in raising rabbits or any of that, but about 90-125 kids would show up every year for BB and pellet teams. So where did 4H hold it? At the fair grounds of course. Outdoors at the Fair Grounds in January and February. Forget shooting jackets and gloves! Everyone there had all sorts of winter gear on just trying to stay alive in the horse stalls.

And it's not that there weren't buildings at the Fair Grounds, it's just that 4H officials hadn't pushed to use them. They were unlocked so we could use the rest rooms and get warm, but not for shooting! There were also empty, lighted super market and WalMart buildings close by that we could have used if anyone official cared to call.

There were numerous other gaffs like this on the part of the professional 4H staff. It's as if, as county workers, they only wanted to make their numbers to keep their county jobs.

I never saw kids suffer so much to have fun shooting. After 3 winters of fighting off frostbite, my son threw in the towel and became a shooting instructor at Boy Scout summer camp. This is a kid that once shot a 92/100 standing during competition wearing street shoes and T-shirt. At Boy Scout camp he tied the camp shotgun record with 44/50 clays.

I count it as a loss to competitive shooting because 4H is the only junior competition around here.

R. F.

Which County do you live in? I'm in Spalding Co. I'd love to talk about some future Georgia Issues....

Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell