Pardini HP 32, ammo talk

[Rover]

If this helps anyone:

http://oregontrailbullet.com/shop/

I used these bullets in my .45 wad gun with much satisfaction.

[pistol champ]

I just loaded up some ammo with those beautiful custom dies from fc60 on a Star Universal loader. My first 25 yard indoor National match course I shot last night was a 96-3X slow fire, 100-8X timed fire, and 99-4X rapid fire. I only loaded up 40 rounds so my night was cut short. When I load my ammo I do not use an expander, I size the case to fit the bullet. This does not over work the brass. I pick the correct die to match the thickness of the brass and the diameter of the bullet this is why fc60 made me so many dies.

[oldcaster]

When you make your expander make sure it is long enough to properly seat your bullet but not too long because the case starts to taper not too far in and it varies between manufacturer. It might be better for you to make it too long at first and flare in a different step. That way you can expand the case with infinite adjustment until you arrive at a length you are happy with and then cut the front off where you want it.

[ghillieman]

Hey Dave Wilson, great thinking on the 32 auto .311 barrel, I wondered when that was going to happen.

I had an idea on sizing dies. I would like to see a custom sizing die that would use neck sizing bushings to size the entire case. One sizing die would clamp in a neck sizing bushing that could be purchased in any size. like these...

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online ... k-bushings
or
http://www.benchrite.com/cscart/index.p ... t_id=29876

[oldcaster]

Read back on Dave Wilson's writings and you will see where he recommends using either a .002 larger sizing die that is available from Lee or a Lee FCD which is even larger. I think that at this time, he is not even resizing. I use the .002 at this time and did for all my testing but it might be better to use the FCD or nothing. Keep a watch here and people will prove which method is the best because quite a few people are trying everything they can think of. If barrels that are smaller become available, several commercial molds will be usable.

[jbzeus]

I just ordered some sizing dies from Lee. They are happy to make whatever you want. I spoke to a person named Jim and explained some of the efforts going on with the .32acp. He said Lee would be happy to make dies at whatever size you would like. Production time can be as much as 4-8 weeks depending on what they are running or have scheduled.

I am looking for a custom expander. Anyone know where I can get one? Buffalo Arms has them but they are too long and only appear to expand about .125 deep.

[oldcaster]

Has anyone checked with Dillon to see if they would do it.

[jbzeus]

I asked Dillon and they said no to making custom items.

[Sa-tevo]

...I am looking for a custom expander. Anyone know where I can get one? Buffalo Arms has them but they are too long and only appear to expand about .125 deep.

I've bought a selection of NOE expanders for 45ACP so my brass would not resize the swaged bullets I am shooting. I also ended up using a 454 Casull sizing die to not size the brass as tight. Maybe NOE offers an expander (Lyman M style) in the size you are looking for:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php? ... v3c3ih79o1

At the price it is practical to buy an oversize expander and turn it down.

[gwpotte]

I am using T&B bullets with good results. I am using a .003 oversized sizing die from Lee (what they had in stock at the time). Lee tells me the standard 32ACP sizing die is .329 and .003 would take it to .332. My Remington brass has a side wall thickness of .01. So with a .314 bullet, I would like the outer wall to be .334 (.314 plus 2 (both sides of brass) X .01 for .334), so I need to do a little expanding.

NOE Bullet Moulds (http://www.noebulletmolds.com) make expander plugs of various sizes for a Lee Universal expander die. They have a two step design with a longer bullet expander portion size and a short .004 larger expander size to use instead of the flare, which I will call bullet insertion expansion. Be careful when buying as they list the .004 larger as the size when you are interested in the bullet expander portion. For example, on the pistol side NOE has a 32AP expander is listed as .314 which has a .310 bullet expander portion and .314 bullet insertion expansion. The 32P expander plug is closer to what I wanted with a .313 bullet expansion portion and .317 bullet insertion portion. (A side note. Lyman makes a 32AP plug for their Lyman M die expander, and they used to make a 32P plug, but they no longer make the 32P plug, nor are they interested in making a custom plug) The problem with these NOE plugs is they are designed for the longer S&W case. So you have to screw the Lee Universal Expanding die all the way in until it touches your shelf plate on your reloaded. Even then it will not be in far enough for the bullet insertion portion of the plug to go into the case. But it will expand to .313, you just have to flare in a separate step. And the threads of the Lee Universal Expanding die go all the way to the bottom, so you will goober up the bottom of the threads screwing the die all the way down to the shelf plate. But it worked okay with good results.

I still wanted a .314 expander, so I ended up with a hobby machinist friend of mine making a custom .314 bullet expansion portion and .317 bullet insertion portion) plug for a Lyman M die (he also make a custom bolt for the center of the M die to screw the plug into so I could screw it down farther). With a .314 bullet portion expansion, I can inset the T&B bullet to the proper depth by hand with some pressure between my thumb and first finger. This is working well for me.

NOE also makes a rifle expander plug 318REXP that has a .314 bullet expansion portion and a .318 bullet insertion portion. I have not tried it, but from the pictures, I think this should work as well (with possibly the same problems as I mentioned above).

[jbzeus]

What I need is a hobbyist machinist friend... Kind of like those friends with a pickup. :-)

I hope I am thinking of this correctly. The expander would be used only once right? That is, to get a case to accept a .314 bullet. After firing an expanded case I assume I could use my custom sizing die to bring it back down slightly for the .314 bullet.

[gwpotte]

Since my sizing die is .332, I use my expander every time. I am not resizing much or expanding much so I do not think I am overworking my brass.

I do not know, but base upon what others are saying, if you have a custom .334 sizing die and only use one gun, you can probably get by with only using the expander with new brass. Brass fired out of your gun should not need to be expanded if resized using a custom .334 (or whatever is appropriate four your brass) sizing die.

[oldcaster]

It may work where expanding your brass every time is not necessary if you have a large enough sizing die, but it may speed things up if you do. The first time I expand new brass, I oil everything so it isn't so abrupt. I expand .3138 and go around .250 deep. I resize with a .002 oversize Lee and expand every time from then on. It takes a few times for the brass to get to its final size. Don't know if it is because of the several expansions or if it is because of a number of firings. Dave Wilson has written that he doesn't expand his brass after it is up to size but I don't know if he expanded it initially. He doesn't shoot his groups in a gun but out of a barrel holder and his accuracy is excellent. This way, it tells whether the bullet is accurate or not because the mistakes the gun makes aren't pertinent when looking for accuracy in a given reload.

Generally I get 1.5 inch ten shot groups at 50 yards but expect one to be out of the group by an inch or so, every 30 shots. With Dave's method, it can't be his sighting error or the gun but I think he stills has a bit of that problem. My guess is that brass is not expanding centered because the brass can be harder or thicker on one side compared to the other. This and a very generous chamber size can cause this problem. I am personally satisfied with this accuracy and am no longer experimenting but I do think better is possible.

[gwpotte]

OldCaster has a good point about not expanding new brass too abruptly. Since I have a Hornady expander die (.311 or .312 hard to measure) I got for reloading Hornady XTP bullets, and a .313 NOE Bullet Moulds expander plug with a Lee Universal expander die, plus my custom made .314 expander plug, I use all three to gradually expand to .314. Probably overkill, but since I have them I use them every time.

I have a separate toolhead block from my Dillon 550 that I put them in with my Lee .003 oversized (.332) sizing die and use it to deprime, size, prime and expand a batch of brass. I then have a second toolhead block that I have my powder, bullet seater, and taper crimp dies in that I load the batch of brass in a second pass.

I have also found that using Uniquetek's CNC machined toolhead blocks with clamp kit already installed plus Uniquetek's turbo bearing (takes flex out of shell plate) make the tiny 32 ACP brass line up with the dies better every round on my Dillon 550 press.

[wes lorenz]

Hi All,
With the talk about sizing and expanding brass. If loading for a semi-auto be careful with "not" resizing before expanding.
Bullet set back is possible during chambering can be an issue. I resize with a .329" D.Wilson resizer, case springs back to .331, and then expand with a .3135" expander which allows me to seat the bullet with my finger to the step that is created. You can see it in the picture and I believe this prevents bullet setback.
Dave made me a .311 32acp barrel out of a Krieger 1:10 blank and used a reamer I had made along time ago. The .311 is much easier to load than those .314"+ Pardini's. Here is today's testing with new Starline brass, Fed primers, 1.6gr VV310, and 60gr XTP's using a rest and 2x scope (very cold out today-mid 30's under the roof) .
Tomorrow I'll shoot some of Dave's Swaged bullets.
Wes
https://goo.gl/photos/TBN8KrSBLw9bFntU6
https://goo.gl/photos/MtGayrr3LS6e16Fm8

[oldcaster]

I am not sure you can have a bullet set back too far in a 32 ACP if they are .314 because the case begins to taper about .250 deep. Most of us have expanded the cases to the point that it is fairly easy to push a bullet into the case. I think mine would drop in but for the sticky lube. I can't load jacketed bullets in these cases anymore because of their size. With a .311 barrel, this should no longer be a problem. Is your chamber smaller than stock Pardini. Stock is quite liberal to make sure it is reliable for the European matches which are only fired at 25 meters but I don't think is a good idea for 50 yard Bullseye unless it causes alibis.

[wes lorenz]

I am not sure you can have a bullet set back too far in a 32 ACP if they are .314 because the case begins to taper about .250 deep. Most of us have expanded the cases to the point that it is fairly easy to push a bullet into the case. I think mine would drop in but for the sticky lube. I can't load jacketed bullets in these cases anymore because of their size. With a .311 barrel, this should no longer be a problem. Is your chamber smaller than stock Pardini. Stock is quite liberal to make sure it is reliable for the European matches which are only fired at 25 meters but I don't think is a good idea for 50 yard Bullseye unless it causes alibis.

All,
I was trying to help you realize the need to resize the brass "under bullet diameter" below the base to prevent bullet set back while feeding regardless of cold working the case (The nose hits the feed ramp which may cause set back if you do not resize the brass). Maybe I misread some posts as this subject is about .314"+ groove diameter barrels.
If I'm all wet I'd like to know,
Wes

[gwpotte]

Wes, I have not experienced bullet setback while feeding when I expand the case to .314 for a .314 bullet. The case springs back a little (.0005 to .001) when expanding so you have some friction when inserting the bullet, but not enough to reswag the bullet to less than .314 which is what we are trying to prevent. With .314 case expansion, I can insert the bullet to the proper depth by placing the case / bullet between my thumb and first joint of my forefinger and applying pressure. It takes some pressure but I can do it with my fingers. If it took little to no pressure to insert the bullet, I would consider the case to be over expanded and susceptible to bullet setback while feeding unless I used a heavy crimp which I don't want to do.

Dave / fc60 is actually using a heavy (.324) crimp in his excellent test results. When I asked, he told me he does the heavy crimp as a carry over from his 32 S&W Long testing where the air pressure inside the case after inserting the bullet would slowly push the bullet back out, and he needed a heavy crimp to stop that. Dave then just carried the heavy crimp over to his 32 ACP testing. Dave was going to try using lighter / minimal crimp (.332 to .333 I assume), since that is what most people (including me) are using with good results. I have not seen any posts by Dave with the lighter crimp, so I am assuming he saw no noticeable difference.

On a side note, I do not know why the .311 Hornady 60gr XTP bullets shoot so well in the Pardini 32 ACP stock .314 barrel, but I have found you need to go 1000fps plus to get the accuracy at 50 yards. I am pushing my T&B 62gr lead SWC bullets about 800fps which has noticeably less recoil, and not much more than a 22. Some people go down to 750 fps, but my Dillon press with Arredondo micrometer powder bar won't throw less than 1.5gr of VV N310 consistently.
40gr 22 recoil 1050fps X 40gr = 42,000 f gr / sec
62gr T&B 32 ACP recoil 800fps X 62gr = 49,600 f gr / sec (18% more than 22)
60gr Hor XTP ACP recoil 1000(+)fps X 60gr = 60,000(+) f gr / sec (43+ % more than 22)

I have chosen to go with the 62gr T&B lead SWC as I am getting good enough accuracy (at 50 yards), no leading, shoot better due to lower recoil, and don't have to worry about wearing the barrel out with jacketed bullets. Plus the lead T&B bullets ($67 per thousand including shipping) are less than 1/2 the cost of the Hornady 60gr XTPs

[oldcaster]

Past about .250 into the case the brass gets thick and won't get bigger so there isn't much worry about .314 bullets getting shoved in far enough to cause high pressure. Even a mild crimp holds them in place and a case this small holds the bullet easily compared to something like a 45. If the bullets were 45's you couldn't have it where it could be pushed in by your fingers because the crimp that would be necessary to hold it in place would have to be excessive.

[rigwhanson]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a T&B?