Wrist Angle?

[superstring]

Hi Folks

I'm wondering about the "proper" wrist angle for shooting air pistol? The way I've approached it so far is to try and replicate the natural way my wrist aligns with my forearm when I hold my arm straight out without holding the gun (or any other weight). To this end, I remove the palm shelf from the grip, hold the gun with my wrist in as close to this "neutral" position, align the sights and finally reattach the palm rest. (I find how I position the palm rest to be a major determinant in maintaining my wrist alignment).

I've read, however, that certain disciplines (eg Free Pistol) have grips that intentionally encourage a bent wrist. And I remember a post from a few years back that said an air pistol should be held with the wrist bent downward as far as possible to avoid "breaking the wrist" on the shot release.

I find that, during the course of a training session, my wrist fatigues and I end by having to use more muscle effort to hold the gun in the "neutral" position and I'm beginning to think that if I started with my wrist bent downward in the first place that would eliminate this "problem".

Is there a "proper" way to hold the wrist for shooting air pistol or is it just a matter of what "feels good"? Thoughts?

[jackh]

Stability in the wrist is the main thing isn't it? I have always thought it is easier to lock the wrist with some down angle. Discuss.

[superstring]

Thanks for the reply jackh. No one else??

[guest100]

Competitive Shooting by A.A. Yur'Yev

[Eurastus]

When I received my FWB 103, the wrist angle of the grip had been adjusted to the maximum right out of the box. By this, I mean that the grip was swiveled as far back as it would go causing the wrist to be angled down quite a bit.

The first time I gripped it, I could notice it was a much more acute angle than any air pistol I had ever shot. Looking down my extended arm, I could hardly see the top of my hand and my trigger finger actually angled downward toward the trigger. I felt uncomfortable and I determined to angle it back up to what I was used to with other guns I own (IZH-46M, FWB 80, etc.).

However, when I got home to shoot it, I was so excited with my new AP that I didn't remember to change the grip angle. After several hundred shots went downrange over the course of the next day or so, I remembered that the angle was acute. By that time, I was somewhat used to it and let it be. Over the next few months, I grew quite accustomed to the grip angle.

Several months went by with me shooting ever-progressing scores and being very happy with the gun...and it's sharply down-turned grip angle. I noticed that my "natural" wrist angle would always place the front sight way too high if I closed my eyes and pointed the gun downrange. This got me thinking about natural POA so I decided to swivel the grip up to "normal" and give the sights a very good natural POA angle.

As soon as I did that, though, the gun felt strange, as one might expect. I persevered for a week or so, shooting slightly lower scores than I'd become used to even though the natural POA was spot-on (5 to 7 points lower than my average for 20-shot, 4-bull targets).

I returned the gun to it's acute wrist angle and immediately felt better about the resulting shots; my scores went back up the 5-7 points I'd lost.

So... I still wonder about this very subject myself. When I shoot other guns, like my FWB 80 that has no adjustable grip angle, I don't notice the lack of acute wrist angle, but I sure do with the FWB 103.

It seems that I shoot higher scores with the grip angled back, even if the natural POA is rather muzzle-high.

For now, I'm leaving it at the acute angle for this AP and moving on to work on other aspects of my form.

I'm not entirely resolved yet, though, and would love to hear opinions from others.

[Gwhite]

My wife and I both get pain in our elbows if we shoot with grips that are angled a lot. It varies from day to day, but when it is really bad, it gets to the point where every shot sends a pain up my arm like hitting my funny bone. It becomes nearly impossible not to flinch. Something about the angle and our joints is pinching the ulnar nerve. I suspect that there is something about muscle tone on any given day that varies how badly the nerve gets pinched. Either that, or some unknown activity gets it inflamed & shooting pushes it over the edge.

The factory Pardini SP grips have about a 45 degree angle, but both Nill Griffe and Rink grips are about 10 degrees less (more vertical). As soon as I switched my SP grip to a Nill Griffe, my elbow pain went away. I have one on order for my wife's SP. My Morini free pistol is on the border. Most days it's fine, but sometimes the last string in a match can be exciting. Because the grip on my Steyr LP50 is easily adjusted, I set the grip to a more vertical angle when I discovered it also bothered my elbow. It's much better, but may need a little more tweaking.

[superstring]

It's great to see some more responses.

In my original post I mentioned that the position of the palm rest on the Morini grip of my LP5 is a big factor in maintaining my wrist alignment. My hand size falls in between Small and Medium. At the moment I'm using a small grip with the palm rest moved as low as it will go. The "heel" of the palm rest fits into the carpal area of my hand/wrist. If I try to angle my hand down much further, the heel of the rest digs into that area of my hand/wrist preventing any additional movement. Is this the way the palm rest is supposed to work?

I've often wondered if it would be better to use the medium grip which would give me more flexibility with regard to the position of the palm rest and allow me to drop my hand further. However, if I did switch grips, I'd have to do some work to get the grip to fit my hand as well as the small grip does and, as I said previously, right now my wrist is aligned in a fairly neutral manner.

[Gwhite]

My theory has always been that the palm rest should merely be an aid to getting a repeatable grip, not as a significant source of pressure or support in any direction. If it's digging into your wrist, something isn't right.

I've had the same issue with the palm rest on some pistols. If everything else fits OK, I just shape a radius on the back edge of the rest so it doesn't dig into my wrist. I think it's typically more of an issue with a grip that is a bit large, where the rest is set high in its adjustment range. If you are having an issue with the smaller grip, it may be time to take some wood off. Sometimes a tiny bit is all that is required, so go at it in small steps, and shoot it at least a bit between attempts to make sure it's really still an issue.

[superstring]

Gwhite, I hear what you're saying but the rest doesn't dig into my wrist unless I drop my hand further than the neutral wrist position. And, if the rest doesn't support the hand/wrist alignment to some extent, what is its' purpose? What I mean is if it's not somehow supporting your wrist alignment, you could take it off all together and it wouldn't make any difference. Right? It seems to me that a repeatable grip is down to the shape of the grip and how perfectly that fits your hand.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; just trying to understand this whole concept.

[Fred Mannis]

In my original post I mentioned that the position of the palm rest on the Morini grip of my LP5 is a big factor in maintaining my wrist alignment. My hand size falls in between Small and Medium. At the moment I'm using a small grip with the palm rest moved as low as it will go. The "heel" of the palm rest fits into the carpal area of my hand/wrist. If I try to angle my hand down much further, the heel of the rest digs into that area of my hand/wrist preventing any additional movement. Is this the way the palm rest is supposed to work?

Have you read this thread viewtopic.php?t=19911 ? From your description of the way your palm rest touches your wrist, it appears to me that you are not meeting ISSF rules on support. I have relieved the top rear edge of the palm shelf so that it is clear of my wrist no matter what the wrist angle.

[Gwhite]

Gwhite, I hear what you're saying but the rest doesn't dig into my wrist unless I drop my hand further than the neutral wrist position. And, if the rest doesn't support the hand/wrist alignment to some extent, what is its' purpose? What I mean is if it's not somehow supporting your wrist alignment, you could take it off all together and it wouldn't make any difference. Right? It seems to me that a repeatable grip is down to the shape of the grip and how perfectly that fits your hand.

The palm rest is NOT supposed to support your wrist, and if it does, as Fred mentioned, you could be running afoul of the rules.

You say it doesn't dig into your wrist unless you drop your hand below a "neutral wrist position". Is that neutral for your wrist, or neutral as in the pistol is pointing at the target? The neutral position of my wrist (just stick my hand out with nothing in it) has a far more vertical grip axis than any European target pistols. I can easily rotate my grip forward (up to a point) without any undo strain or discomfort. I believe this does two things: 1) it lowers the bore line with respect to your arm, reducing muzzle flip in recoil, and 2) it is supposed to tighten up the joint/muscle structures in your arm so there is less wobble.

If I rotate my wrist too far forward, I can feel pressure building in my elbow joint, and that is where I get in trouble. I think the ideal grip angle is as far forward as you can go, without crossing that threshold. From there, the heel rest should be adjusted to allow a firm grip without being tight, and without digging into your wrist (which may require whittling).

How tight you want the heel rest is probably a matter of personal preference. I certainly don't clamp my hand in place with the rest. How much pressure it exerts will vary with how firm your grip is, and other variables. If you shoot free pistol with a wrap around grip, you'll find that the tightness of the fit can vary dramatically from day to day depending on the weather, diet, hydration, etc. I don't want a heel rest so tight that I notice any significant variations from day to day like that.

[superstring]

Have you read this thread viewtopic.php?t=19911 ? From your description of the way your palm rest touches your wrist, it appears to me that you are not meeting ISSF rules on support. I have relieved the top rear edge of the palm shelf so that it is clear of my wrist no matter what the wrist angle.

Hi Fred. Yes I have read that thread and it appears there is some disagreement as to what exactly constitutes the "wrist". I've looked at some anatomical diagrams of the hand/wrist and, as far as I can figure, the heel of the palm rest on my gun sits in the "carpal" area. But here's a practical description: If you lay your right hand down on a flat surface, just below the fleshy portion (below the little finger), on the underside is a bone you can feel. On the top side is another bone you can easily see (and feel). It's between these 2 that the heel of my palm rest sits. In other words it sits where my wrist pivots. In no way does it "immobilize" my wrist as, for that to happen, the rest would have to extend contact to both bones.

You say it doesn't dig into your wrist unless you drop your hand below a "neutral wrist position". Is that neutral for your wrist, or neutral as in the pistol is pointing at the target? The neutral position of my wrist (just stick my hand out with nothing in it) has a far more vertical grip axis than any European target pistols. I can easily rotate my grip forward (up to a point) without any undo strain or discomfort. I believe this does two things: 1) it lowers the bore line with respect to your arm, reducing muzzle flip in recoil, and 2) it is supposed to tighten up the joint/muscle structures in your arm so there is less wobble.

I mean neutral in both senses: as in sticking my hand out with nothing in it AND the pistol is pointing at the target. If I understand you correctly, holding the pistol the way you do would mean "cocking" my wrist at a high angle, which I've tried, and it requires a lot more muscular effort to maintain that hold.

[Fred Mannis]

Here is a quote from Antal's Competitive Pistol Shooting
"For a powerful grip it is also vital that the wrist be held straight; in effect, this lengthens the flexor muscles. The dropped wrist position used with free pistols gives stability at the cost of a weakened grip. With a light trigger this creates no problems, but it is obviously an unsuitable grip for standard pistols and full bore weapons."

AP trigger weight, gun weight and balance, and recoil are closer to FP than to standard or rapid fire pistols, so most (but not all) AP shooters use a dropped wrist position.

I suggest you try using a dropped wrist position for a few weeks. Adjust your palm rest so that it does bear on your wrist at all - let your body determine what angle is tolerable. Everyone is different and you need to experiment to see what is best for you.

[superstring]

That's a great explanation, Fred. I'm going to try what you suggest.