Hi All,
My son is a member of a 3p team competing in a postal match put on by the local VFW chapters across Iowa. My son’s club is sponsored by the Ames Ikes as well as the local VFW Chapter. This is his second year and since he seems to be quite interested in the sport I decided to buy him a better quality rifle than the Daisy 853 the club provides. I researched the approved rifles in the 2008-2010 rule book and decided on the Daisy 887.
I was hoping that the experts here would have good intelligence on the best pellet choice for this rifle. The club shoots H&N 7.6g match wad cutters in their 853s. I would like to balance quality and accuracy with cost as I hope to encourage my son to practice daily by shooting all three positions burning up 30 rounds a day. Will the higher muzzle velocity of the 887 required a heavier pellet or maybe a lighter pellet will have a flatter trajectory? Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.
Also, I would like to find out if there are any other postal or e-mail matches that an individual can join.
Sorry I am posting as a guest but I could not register. I may not be able to see the authentication codes correctly.
Sincerely,
Reverend Rich
Honey Ridge
New Rifle Pellet Choice
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
air rifle comps
Rev. Rich: If you will contact me directly at bawilli@comcast.net I can perhaps help with some postal comps. No help with the rifle question, but maybe some other stuff. Don in Oregon
All below is my opinion & experience:
#1 The best pellet "out of the box" .... meaning no testing different brands/lots .... but very good overall performance that I've seen in 887's are the Vogels (USA) that you can order from our host.
#2 are the NLU-443 Diablo Sports from CMP
(Note the CMP NLU-409's may be the same as #1 above, but Scott would need to confirm/deny that)
Again, my opinion, no need to go with more expensive pellets unless/until the sporter shooter is firing >525-530 consistently.
Whatever you do, DO NOT fire the Walmart cheapo's .... you'll handicap your shooters 15-20 points right off the bat.
The USA Vogels that Scott makes are some of the best in our precision rifles as well
#1 The best pellet "out of the box" .... meaning no testing different brands/lots .... but very good overall performance that I've seen in 887's are the Vogels (USA) that you can order from our host.
#2 are the NLU-443 Diablo Sports from CMP
(Note the CMP NLU-409's may be the same as #1 above, but Scott would need to confirm/deny that)
Again, my opinion, no need to go with more expensive pellets unless/until the sporter shooter is firing >525-530 consistently.
Whatever you do, DO NOT fire the Walmart cheapo's .... you'll handicap your shooters 15-20 points right off the bat.
The USA Vogels that Scott makes are some of the best in our precision rifles as well
Thanks for the pellet info. Just a few follow up questions.
First, what’s the difference between the Vogel USA Sport Pellets (practice pellets in the orange tin) and the Vogel USA LG Match pellets (Other than $2.50). Remember my son is relatively new to the sport and is only currently scoring about 50%. Will there really be much difference gained with the match grade pellets until he becomes more proficient?
Second, I notice that there are two sizes of the match grade USA pellets, 4.49mm and 4.50mm. Is the pellet size difference to accommodate the different bore variances barrel to barrel or does the extra 0.01mm help engage the rifling or make a better seal or what?
Sincerely,
Reverend Rich
Honey Ridge
First, what’s the difference between the Vogel USA Sport Pellets (practice pellets in the orange tin) and the Vogel USA LG Match pellets (Other than $2.50). Remember my son is relatively new to the sport and is only currently scoring about 50%. Will there really be much difference gained with the match grade pellets until he becomes more proficient?
Second, I notice that there are two sizes of the match grade USA pellets, 4.49mm and 4.50mm. Is the pellet size difference to accommodate the different bore variances barrel to barrel or does the extra 0.01mm help engage the rifling or make a better seal or what?
Sincerely,
Reverend Rich
Honey Ridge
Our sporter guns (888's, 887's, and XSV-40's) all shoot 4.50 pellets exclusively.
Our host, Scott, could probably give us a detailed explanation on the differences, but a simple explanation is that the the less expensive ones are probably not as uniform as the others. They will still be light years better than the Wally World cheap stuff though.
From my club's perspective, $2.50 is $2.50. So until he is shooting about 75% (say 225-230 out of 300) then you'll be OK. When he get's consistently above that, switch to the better grade. Then he'll be in the realm where it may gain him a few points.
Teach him to call his shots early. (How old is he)? If he is younger, and in prone or kneeling if his shot calls are not where the pellet hits (after a good sght in of course), then those may be those oddball pellets, and it's time to move him to a better grade.
Another FYI .... only my NEWEST shooters use cheaper pellets ... those that have not learned all the positions. After that we make no distinction between match and practice pellets .... we shoot in practice what we shoot in matches. Not the same in .22 however .... but pellets are cheap
Our host, Scott, could probably give us a detailed explanation on the differences, but a simple explanation is that the the less expensive ones are probably not as uniform as the others. They will still be light years better than the Wally World cheap stuff though.
From my club's perspective, $2.50 is $2.50. So until he is shooting about 75% (say 225-230 out of 300) then you'll be OK. When he get's consistently above that, switch to the better grade. Then he'll be in the realm where it may gain him a few points.
Teach him to call his shots early. (How old is he)? If he is younger, and in prone or kneeling if his shot calls are not where the pellet hits (after a good sght in of course), then those may be those oddball pellets, and it's time to move him to a better grade.
Another FYI .... only my NEWEST shooters use cheaper pellets ... those that have not learned all the positions. After that we make no distinction between match and practice pellets .... we shoot in practice what we shoot in matches. Not the same in .22 however .... but pellets are cheap
Do you know the physics behind the choice of 4.50mm over 4.49mm or was the choice based on the trial and error of which pellets shot the best in the rifles? I will probably use the sporter practice pellets for a while as suggested.
My boy is 14 going on 30. What does it mean to call his shot? He is currently shooting a 160 to 175 out of 300 using the Daisy 853 shooting once a week at the club. When we get the 887 I will encourage him to start practicing daily. His prone and kneeling scores are steadily increasing but his standing score is on the decline. Are there any pearls of knowledge that I can impart to help him with his standing position?
Reverend Rich
My boy is 14 going on 30. What does it mean to call his shot? He is currently shooting a 160 to 175 out of 300 using the Daisy 853 shooting once a week at the club. When we get the 887 I will encourage him to start practicing daily. His prone and kneeling scores are steadily increasing but his standing score is on the decline. Are there any pearls of knowledge that I can impart to help him with his standing position?
Reverend Rich
Just like on any rifle ... they will prefer some over others. With a sporter rifle I don't think it's as critical as say a precision one ... The tubes on Daisy rifles seem to like 4.50 just fineDo you know the physics behind the choice of 4.50mm over 4.49mm
A shooter should be able to take a "quick mental snapshot" of the shot just fired. (Good followthru after the shot helps here) The shooter should be able to call the approximate shot value as well as the direction of that shot. Most of us use a clockface method ... i.e. "9 at 3-o'clock". Now this skill takes some time, but even beginning shooters will be able to tell you something like "in the black, low" or "snowbird to the left". This ability in prone and kneeling will be quicker, but it comes in standing too.What does it mean to call his shot?
First ... it's a good thing you're learning too ... having an interested knowledgeable coach helps ... don't worry that you are learning too, just that you're willing to pick up the pearls.Are there any pearls of knowledge that I can impart to help him with his standing position?
Look in your area for any coach clinics that may be happening ... A great starter is the JROTC "JMIC" program ..... ask around at some of the highschools if there is one happening anytime .... good for basics & safety awareness, Then maybe look into the NRA/CMP/USAS Coach classes ... If you're going to plan to work with him ... go ahead and get your Level-1. That can take you and your shooter pretty darn far.
As for standing .... always tough to coach w/o seeing the shooter, but here are some things to watch:
1) Sight Alignment ... when the shooter brings the gun to their shoulder and the head goes down .... are they seeing straight thru the sights ... not at an angle thru them
2) Balance .... if they close their eyes holding the rifle .... do they want to fall forward or backward? If FWD have them slighty move the back foot a touch in the direction they are falling ( a touch= about a cm maybe ) .... if backward, have them move the back foot that way .... small adjustments
3) NPA - Natural Point of Aim - After they are aligned to the sights and are balanced .... close the eyes, relax .... open and see where the rifle is pointing .... if not on the target, move the whole position as if on a turntable and go back to #1
4) Finally ... if my shooters are on target and cannot get the shot off in 6-12 seconds (especially if you have breath holders) ... set the gun on the rest and start the shot again .... no rush ... in a match they have 2 minutes per shot in the standing position ... no points for being the first one finished
Finally, find a match in your area if you can and go watch, both you and the shooter can learn if you watch for some of the things above.
I started coaching - KNOWING NOTHING - with my 12 year old daughter a few years (almost 5) ago, and I am still learning, and learning and learning. Making those other contacts is great for the times that you can hand them off to another coach for tune-ups and to catch the things you miss
Thanks for the tips. I will have my son look over the suggestions and see if anything rings a bell with him. I will also have him start to call his shots. I was looking into your suggestion on getting a level 1 coaching rating. I downloaded some PDF documents on the subject from the NRA training site and it looks interesting but there are no classes within 2 states of me in the near future. I will keep and eye out for something I can attend.
Tell me a little about this breath holding. When I was being taught how to shoot by my father he always said take a deep breath, let it out then take another deep breath, let half out and hold it through your shot and a few heart beats after. Is there a better way or just personal preference?
Last year my son participated in an annual match in which all the clubs his club shoots against in the postal match are invited. There were maybe 100 kids shooting. Most of the kids were shooting in the sporter class but there were a couple of precision shooters as well. The match was hosted by a JROTC club affiliated with one of the high schools in Des Moines. With all the No Tolerance shineola running rampant though our society I found it refreshing that there was a rifle match held in the gymnasium of this high school. The whole experience was educational. A little daunting though, the JROTC club shooters were light years ahead of the rest of the league both in skill level and equipment.
Reverend Rich
Tell me a little about this breath holding. When I was being taught how to shoot by my father he always said take a deep breath, let it out then take another deep breath, let half out and hold it through your shot and a few heart beats after. Is there a better way or just personal preference?
Last year my son participated in an annual match in which all the clubs his club shoots against in the postal match are invited. There were maybe 100 kids shooting. Most of the kids were shooting in the sporter class but there were a couple of precision shooters as well. The match was hosted by a JROTC club affiliated with one of the high schools in Des Moines. With all the No Tolerance shineola running rampant though our society I found it refreshing that there was a rifle match held in the gymnasium of this high school. The whole experience was educational. A little daunting though, the JROTC club shooters were light years ahead of the rest of the league both in skill level and equipment.
Reverend Rich
don't forget the book
Hi Rich
Glad to see you got here.
Don't forget the book "Air Rifle Shooting"
http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
Without other coaches around, I think it is a good alternative. I wish I had it and "Ways of the Rifle" when I started out. Lots of good info, just take it slow and don't get overwhelmed with all the info.
Gary
Glad to see you got here.
Don't forget the book "Air Rifle Shooting"
http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
Without other coaches around, I think it is a good alternative. I wish I had it and "Ways of the Rifle" when I started out. Lots of good info, just take it slow and don't get overwhelmed with all the info.
Gary
Rich .... I teach a "normal" breathing routine.
Normal breaths until ready to steady up and then an normal exhale. At the bottom of the exhale (at the relaxation point) have them stop .... usually just a relaxed press of the tongue up to the palete (sp?). Sometime in the next 6-8 seconds as everything steadys up take the shot ..... follow thru (mentally recoding the shot) and begin regular breathing again ..... after the follow thru period they can take a deep breath to re-oxigenate .... maybe one again before they begin the next shot process.
Some of my shooters prefer to stop the breath half way, and still a few will stop at the top .... most will do the bottom of the breath.
"Ways of the Rifle" is a good book for overall rifle.
"Air Rifle Shooting" may be a bit advanced as yet ... it is pretty hardcore Precision rifle leaning.
I guess the price is only going to go up on those so if the change is rattling around in the pocket now, go ahead and get both.
Don't worry about the JROTC shooters being more advanced.... it comes with time, many of them have been shooting this 3-4 years, but it is a sport that takes time and self discipline to master.
PM me with your email address and I'll send you a PDF of a shot calling target I use. You can print it out on a printer
Normal breaths until ready to steady up and then an normal exhale. At the bottom of the exhale (at the relaxation point) have them stop .... usually just a relaxed press of the tongue up to the palete (sp?). Sometime in the next 6-8 seconds as everything steadys up take the shot ..... follow thru (mentally recoding the shot) and begin regular breathing again ..... after the follow thru period they can take a deep breath to re-oxigenate .... maybe one again before they begin the next shot process.
Some of my shooters prefer to stop the breath half way, and still a few will stop at the top .... most will do the bottom of the breath.
"Ways of the Rifle" is a good book for overall rifle.
"Air Rifle Shooting" may be a bit advanced as yet ... it is pretty hardcore Precision rifle leaning.
I guess the price is only going to go up on those so if the change is rattling around in the pocket now, go ahead and get both.
Don't worry about the JROTC shooters being more advanced.... it comes with time, many of them have been shooting this 3-4 years, but it is a sport that takes time and self discipline to master.
PM me with your email address and I'll send you a PDF of a shot calling target I use. You can print it out on a printer
-
isuguncoach
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:49 pm
- Location: central illinois
- Contact:
coach in Iowa
RevRich,
Have worked with an excellent coach in Iowa, and he is on the National Coach Developement staff...the group that trains coaches across the nation. Send me a PM, and will get his contact info. to you concerning coaching classes here in the Midwest.
The first class that I know of is early May in Illinois.
Joe
Have worked with an excellent coach in Iowa, and he is on the National Coach Developement staff...the group that trains coaches across the nation. Send me a PM, and will get his contact info. to you concerning coaching classes here in the Midwest.
The first class that I know of is early May in Illinois.
Joe