Newbie Question

[dsegura]

I have been thinking about taking up pistol shooting. Right now I’m the occasional shooter (trips to the range once or twice a year with friends). I have to admit, watching the Olympics has drawn me to the 50m free pistol and 25m rapid fire pistol events. What are some recommendations for a new gun for someone like me, just getting started? I don’t want to make a huge investment until I gain some experience in the sport and know that it is something I want to continue. I’ve been thinking about the Walther SP22 M3. It seems like a good gun for the money. Anyone have any thoughts/recommendations?

[Bill Poole]

first, if you're serious about this, DON'T buy a gun until you've met some folks and shot some guns

there are 100 million pudlic range shooters in the US, 10,000 NRA bullseye shooters 9500 of them are inactive and about, literally, 100 international style shooters in the US... this is a VERY VERY demanding and exacting precision sport!

first, where are you? if you are in arizona, contact me immediately and plan on shooting with us at Phoenix Rod & Gun.

get on the USAShooting website and search for PTO (preliminary tryouts) in your area and contact those clubs.

post here your location and a request for local info and help there's likely someone local to you on this board.

as to guns.

you "can" shoot 25m & 50m with almost any mediocre .22 semiauto, like a Ruger or Browning with adjustable sights (get on the ISSF-shooting.org website, look up the rules and find the dimensions for 25m pistol there is a size & barrel length rule) however the trigger will be disappointing (but a gunsmith and a picture of Ben franklin can fix that) for 50m you'd have to load singly, a pain. If you go that route you will end up upgrading (or changing hobby) and selling that gun

I don't know much about the walther, the older ones are often seen and american shooters often shoot older S&W 41 or high standards, but for new guns the Pardini seems to be the most popular for 25m and the Morini CM84 for 50m, this board's host (the nation's top vendor of olympic pistol gear) has a coupla other top end 25m pistols but I don't now much about them http://www.pilkguns.com/sportpistol.shtml you might find a used pistol that you could sell later for the same price.

for air pistol the morini and steyr are both popular

50m pistol and rapid fire seem to need different skill or personality, there seems to be not much crossover between those two but precision shooters shoot both air and 50m events.

watch the finals for the pistol events on nbcolympics.com again and watch the techniques, read the coaching tips on the pilkguns.com and targetshooting.ca websites.

welcome to the sport!

Poole

[Alexander]

and about, literally, 100 international style shooters in the US... this is a VERY VERY demanding and exacting precision sport!

I guess the correct number would be at least 10,000. What Bill may have had in mind, are the number of USA-based ISSF shooters on an international performance level.

Alexander

[AAlex]

100 word class shooters? as in >580 AP? In china, maybe. But in US that is at least order of magnitude off.

[dsegura]

Thanks for the info Bill. As a matter of fact, I do live in Phoenix. That’s how I found this forum. I was doing a Google search on local shooting. I was excited to see so much dedicated to shooting here in Arizona. I’ve been thinking about the PTO on Sept. 20th, but do not currently own a pistol. That’s why I had been researching the Walther SP22. Of course you do bring up a good point about trying before buying.

I have looked at the websites you mentioned along with USA Shooting, ISSF, and all the local ones. Your arizona.rifleshooting.com website certainly had a lot of great information as well. I’m not expecting to be the next great Zurek or yourself, I just thought that international style pistol shooting looked interesting is something I want to pursue.

I am certainly looking forward to learning about and participating in the sport.

[2650 Plus]

If you decide on Free Pistol you might try the TOZ from our host or possible a used one in reasonable condition. These are still being shot in the olympics and FP570 Who posts on this forum shoots one as does our olympic shooter that competed in the latest games. Welcome and good shooting. Bill Horton

[Bill Poole]

there are 100 million pudlic range shooters in the US, 10,000 NRA bullseye shooters 9500 of them are inactive and about, literally, 100 international style shooters in the US... this is a VERY VERY demanding and exacting precision sport!

I am probably guilty of a little exageration and poetic license on that one, but when we hold the national championships or 3X air we have fewer than about 100 shooters in PISTOL combined men & women. slightly more in rifle.

These represent a range of skill levels, but that is the number of those currently active enough to travel to a big match, maybe the same number consider themselves still in the sport but are inactive this year (I've been inactive for about 2 years), and there are lots of ex-shooters, I've run into 2 in recent weeks who shot UIT style way back when, in the 70's when AZ had a place called "Black Canyon Range" and 200 people tried out for rapid fire.... but those shooters have disappeared from our events...

I seriously doubt more than a coupla hundred shooters in the US consider themselves active ISSF style pistol shooters and not many more could even identify what ISSF is or accurately describe a course of fire.

and no more than a dozen or so who could be considered "world class"

out of 300 million people protected by the 2nd amendment....

I've been trying for years to get more folks into this game...

Poole

[Alexander]

Interesting assessments. Pessimistic?

Hereabout *only* at my county championships, we had 104 contestants (men, women, juniors, seniors, everybody) in 10 metres AP.

At the regional championships, the overall number was 168.

Alexander

[Alexander]

100 word class shooters? as in >580 AP?

If I am allowed an afterthought:
Everybody can of course use his personal implied definition for "world class". Mine would be: competing at international matches, world cups etc.

In view of the Beijing Olympics 2008, I shall thus define "world class" as 563 AP men, 365 AP women, 555 25m pistol women.

Alexander

[Bill Poole]

In view of the Beijing Olympics 2008, I shall thus define "world class" as 563 AP men,
365 AP women, 555 25m pistol women

http://www.usashooting.org/downloads/08 ... _final.xls

563 for 2 matches is 1126

only 8 shooters broke 1126 in the nationals, 4 more broke 563, only 17 shot 563 once or more in the 3-day try outs
http://www.usashooting.org/downloads/08 ... esults.xls

of course there is some overlap but I think I see 19 unique names hitting 563 or better at least once


Women's AP
http://www.usashooting.org/downloads/08 ... _final.xls
I see 11 hit 365 at least once
http://www.usashooting.org/downloads/08 ... esults.xls
only 12
I don't have the patience to sort them out but I'm seeing the same names over and over


http://www.usashooting.org/downloads/08 ... _final.xls
women's sport pistol
only 5 broke 555
most or all the same names as in AP


so I'm guessing 19 men and 15 women are "world Class"

figure a few stayed home and there are only 50 or so active pistol shooters that can shoot those kinda scores in the entire USA! (so my "not more than a dozen" is an exagerration, again)

why not 50,000?

Poole

[world class]

I feel special now making that list. I think Im going to shoot better tonight, thanks for the confidence boost Bill. signed First time WC shooter...

[gordonfriesen]

In view of the Beijing Olympics 2008, I shall thus define "world class" as 563 AP men, 365 AP women, 555 25m pistol women.
Alexander

These are the olympic minimum qualifying scores. FP was 540.

Now in the interests of thouroghness, the following are the equivalents for the Paralympics coming up next in Beijing:

P1 Air pistol Men SH1 545
P2 Air pistol Women SH1 347
P3 Sport pistol .22 Mixed SH1 540
P4 Free pistol .22 Mixed SH1 505

Best Regards,

Gordon AKA SP543

[David Levene]

In view of the Beijing Olympics 2008, I shall thus define "world class" as 563 AP men,
365 AP women, 555 25m pistol women

I am not sure that you could class those scores as world class Bill.

If you look at the placings you would have achieved at the Olympics and the World Cups this year:-

AP60 @ 563
Olympics =46 (only beating a 561 and a DSQ)
Milan 65/73
Munich 84/111
Beijing 72/83

AP40 @ 365
Olympics 43 (only beating a DNF)
Milan 72/76
Munich 81/92
Beijing 64/71

25m Pistol @ 555
Olympics 42 (last)
Milan 62/70
Munich 59/75
Beijing 56/61

I don't want to offend anyone but IMHO those scores and placings are nowhere near to world class. If you cannot beat the Olympic MQS (which these scores represent) with ease then you've got some work to do.

[gordonfriesen]

Sport Pistol 540
Athens Paralympics 17/23
(gold medal 574)

Free Pistol 505
Athens Paralympics 20/26
(gold medal 533)

[Alexander]

In view of the Beijing Olympics 2008, I shall thus define "world class" as 563 AP men,
365 AP women, 555 25m pistol women

I am not sure that you could class those scores as world class Bill.
(...)
I don't want to offend anyone but IMHO those scores and placings are nowhere near to world class.

Just to clarify: that was my definition, not Bill Poole's (dishonour to whom dishonour is due ;-)); and indeed it is a question of definition. I define (literally and thus at least not wrongly) "world class" as world class, thus not as world medal or title winner.

Qualifying for the Olympics means that one has a *chance* (not more than a chance, depending upon national quota, still better other national shooters and possible tripartite commission allocation) for competing with the world's best in one class.

That means "world class". QED.


(If David argues that merely achieving the Olympics qualification score puts one not even *near* any chance to win a medal or a title - except maybe in African Continental Championships -, not even if one were having a very good day, and the other competitors all having very bad days -, I would certainly fully agree with him).

Alexander

[Alexander]

there are 100 million pudlic range shooters in the US, 10,000 NRA bullseye shooters 9500 of them are inactive and about, literally, 100 international style shooters in the US... this is a VERY VERY demanding and exacting precision sport!

I am probably guilty of a little exaggeration and poetic license on that one, but when we hold the national championships or 3X air we have fewer than about 100 shooters in PISTOL combined men & women. slightly more in rifle. (...)
I seriously doubt more than a coupla hundred shooters in the US consider themselves active ISSF style pistol shooters and not many more could even identify what ISSF is or accurately describe a course of fire.

and no more than a dozen or so who could be considered "world class"

out of 300 million people protected by the 2nd amendment....

I've been trying for years to get more folks into this game...

Dear Bill, you are indeed guilty as charged by yourself :-D ... but regardless of that, your pessimistic wording was far nearer to the truth than my optimistic assessment, as I have now found out.

I have browsed in more depth through the USAShooting website, and through their various results tables. To say I was shocked would be the understatement of the year.

Yes, there are a few excellent ISSF style shooters, who are worthy of all appreciation and praise, but after seeing the (non-existent) base for them, and the overall numbers of competitors, I am just left standing with open mouth and dropped jaw.

Sorry for my incredulity. Culture shock and wrong transfer of expectations, I guess.

Alexander

[Misny]

dsegura,

Sorry your thread got hijacked by the elitists. Since you definitely live close to one of the premier clubs in the country, join it. Listen to the folks in the know about entry level equipment, Bill Poole sounds like one of those. Politely ignore the good intentions of the range rats and gun shop commandos. A Ruger or similar .22 pistol with 5 1/2" barrel and adjustable sights will get you off and running. You can find them at just about any gun shop for a reasonable price. As you progress, you can upgrade your equipment. By that time, you will have read all the rulebooks, seen a number of different matches and maybe tried them. You may find that suits you better or that you enjoy one over the other. When you start out, seek out a good coach. Follow his or her instructions. Don't worry about scores, just try to improve your shot groups. Don't expect to shoot with the "big dogs" right away. I would suggest that you buy a copy of Gil Hebard's book, "The Pistol Shooters Treasury". You can get them at www.champchoice.com or www.larrysguns.com. It will cost about six bucks. Finally, pistol shooting especially with one hand is difficult and generally people will improve by small increments. Don't get discouraged. It takes someone with a lot of patience and determination. I hope that it is the right sport for you, and I welcome you.

[gordonfriesen]

Qualifying for the Olympics means that one has a *chance* (not more than a chance, depending upon national quota, still better other national shooters and possible tripartite commission allocation) for competing with the world's best in one class.

That means "world class". QED.

I agree.

Just looking at FP, the record is 581. Beijing Gold to fourth place were in the range of 563-565.

Halfway down the pack, the score is 552. It is easy to see how a 552 shooter could get into competition, but it is impossible to see how he could win. And yet thee is something counterintuitive about the idea that olympic competitors are not "World Class".

And there were five shooters who scored the lowly mqs or less, without counting one dsq.

So, David, I think your idea of limiting the world class moniker to actual contenders is too restrictive.

Come on now... Cut us second and third tier guys some slack !

Best Regards (and in all good humour),


Gordon

[David Levene]

Just looking at FP, the record is 581. Beijing Gold to fourth place were in the range of 563-565.

Halfway down the pack, the score is 552. It is easy to see how a 552 shooter could get into competition, but it is impossible to see how he could win. And yet thee is something counterintuitive about the idea that olympic competitors are not "World Class".

And there were five shooters who scored the lowly mqs or less, without counting one dsq.

So, David, I think your idea of limiting the world class moniker to actual contenders is too restrictive.

But if you're looking at FP Gordon then, if you want to compare it to the scores previously suggested for other events, you need to use that MQS score of 540.


FP @ 540
Olympics =40 (only beating a 538, a 535 and a DSQ)
Milan 51/62
Munich 69/81
Beijing 56/59

I am certainly not saying that you should only consider the real contending scores to be world class. I do feel however that you should be looking at scores that would get you into the top 50% in major matches rather than the bottom 15%.

Come on now... Cut us second and third tier guys some slack !

Third tier is something I now only dream of reaching on a good day ;-)

[gordonfriesen]

David,

For the longest time my goal was the 540 paralympic sport pistol mqs. I finally succeeded a couple of times in a row, in competition last fall, and then went into an off-and-on slump. My goal then became to shoot 540 regularly.

But I think I will change strategies and up the ante to 555 which fits your criteria of top half in the Athens paralympics. (555 11/23). Maybe setting this higher goal will demystify the old 540 number and reduce my stress as I realize that I am on track after four or five targets.

Thanks fr the nudge.

Best Regards,

Gordon