Bill,
I agree entirely with what you are teaching here.
To aim, settle and squeeze, in the driving world, would be like looking at a curve from an immobile car, then turning the wheel to what you think would be the right position, and then finally stepping on the gas.
Look out railing!... (Crash!)
What we need, is to get the car moving, watch the curve coming and respond to feedback by nudging the car into the right track. All this while the car is picking up speed, because the foot is pushing harder and harder on the pedal. In the end, the car is roaring around the curve, right on the desired line, without any further deviation because the wheel is turned just right.
This is exactly like starting the trigger, aiming more and more precisely and all the while, as you said in another post which I think deserves to be repeated,
"working like the devil to perfect sight before the gun went off..."
I think this last bit is the most important, because it is the volontary conscious part--Working, Hard, to be as aware as possible to the last detail and to the very end of the shot (well beyond the detonation). This is what we can actually DO instead of just wishing for it.
Just trusting your training or your sub-conscious zombie will not cut it. You have to cultivate a super alert state and, as you say, "work like the devil".
Today I shot a good target, started congratulating myself, convinced myself that I just had to keep doing the same "behaviors" and everything would be fine. Nope. My score tanked on targert two. Then I started to fight again. fight to keep that attention, and fight to keep the damn post in the notch. And up went the sciore again.
Now all I need is to be able to master myself enough to do this consistently:)
Thanks for your positive and encouraging. and especailly right on accurate words of wisdom,
Best Regrds,
Gordon
Behavioral Metrics
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Here we go with the semantics (again).
So, Gordon, by abondoning your behavior of "working like the dickens to focus on perfecting alignment" . . . you were actually executing the same behaviors, and that's why they didn't work?
I am obviously mightily confused about what we each think a "behavior" is.
And Bill- again we haver your straw man of "align, and then settle, and then squeeze trigger" as three independent and serial processes. I don't know why you insist on using that obviously flawed example as the counterpoint to what you are claiming.
AGAIN, (perhaps shouting this time?)
- Triggering can be trained to be perfect and perfectly automatic- once initiated, you don't have to/shouldn't try to control or micromanage it. It's burned itno the "subconscious" level of thought . . . Like Ed Hall says, you just have to sit back and watch it. And not even that closely, or you will fall into the "squeeze-don't squeeze" trap. Like a heartbeat.
- Maintaining a good settle in your aiming area is something that is semi-autnomic . . . you give very little thought to it; just enough to know when it is present at the start and enough to know when you are losing it at the end of your optimal hold. Like breathing.
- Aligning/perfecting alignment (it is never actually perfect except for fleeting moments of more perfect/less perfect) is the only thing that should have your direct attention- and it should have ALL of your direct attention.
[Note to Gordon- each of those three task groups above can be considered "behaviors" that you either do or don't do; along with many other related "behaviors" we haven't talked about here. Yet. Like the mental game/attitude/midnset behaviors etc. Some behaviors are complex groups of other, simpler, discrete behaviors.]
So
The process is to approach the aiming area, pick up the front sight physically and mentally, achieve rough alignment as you settle, then concentrate on perfecting alignment during the settle as the shot breaks.
Pretty simple- but not easy. And Bill; my shots break within 3 seconds of hte initial settle or I put the gun down (at least that's my "behavior" that I would like to improve on).
O.K. Bill- so what was that nonsense about how those who shoot with a lit bottle rocket up their butts are destined to fail? Or what was that false Straw man argument/example you keep raising from the dead?
Sheesh.
So, Gordon, by abondoning your behavior of "working like the dickens to focus on perfecting alignment" . . . you were actually executing the same behaviors, and that's why they didn't work?
I am obviously mightily confused about what we each think a "behavior" is.
And Bill- again we haver your straw man of "align, and then settle, and then squeeze trigger" as three independent and serial processes. I don't know why you insist on using that obviously flawed example as the counterpoint to what you are claiming.
AGAIN, (perhaps shouting this time?)
- Triggering can be trained to be perfect and perfectly automatic- once initiated, you don't have to/shouldn't try to control or micromanage it. It's burned itno the "subconscious" level of thought . . . Like Ed Hall says, you just have to sit back and watch it. And not even that closely, or you will fall into the "squeeze-don't squeeze" trap. Like a heartbeat.
- Maintaining a good settle in your aiming area is something that is semi-autnomic . . . you give very little thought to it; just enough to know when it is present at the start and enough to know when you are losing it at the end of your optimal hold. Like breathing.
- Aligning/perfecting alignment (it is never actually perfect except for fleeting moments of more perfect/less perfect) is the only thing that should have your direct attention- and it should have ALL of your direct attention.
[Note to Gordon- each of those three task groups above can be considered "behaviors" that you either do or don't do; along with many other related "behaviors" we haven't talked about here. Yet. Like the mental game/attitude/midnset behaviors etc. Some behaviors are complex groups of other, simpler, discrete behaviors.]
So
The process is to approach the aiming area, pick up the front sight physically and mentally, achieve rough alignment as you settle, then concentrate on perfecting alignment during the settle as the shot breaks.
Pretty simple- but not easy. And Bill; my shots break within 3 seconds of hte initial settle or I put the gun down (at least that's my "behavior" that I would like to improve on).
O.K. Bill- so what was that nonsense about how those who shoot with a lit bottle rocket up their butts are destined to fail? Or what was that false Straw man argument/example you keep raising from the dead?
Sheesh.
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2650 Plus
Metrics
Just to begin, What the heck is a " Metric " Steve you seem to be translating what ever is said into your jargon. There is more than enough said about shooting that is flat wrong and to further confuse the shooting process with strange and confusing word smithing does not advance the sport. Yes, beginning the trigger pressure first may seem to be a radical solution . In addition you must first remove all inhibitions about moving the finger. The first indication that you have susceeded is that you will probably fire the first shot over the target when you totally make that commitment,. Dont let that discourage you, It just means you have come very close to doing it correctly. With so much that you have written having deffinate value why quibble because the words happen to be different ? If you are consistantly breaking your shots within 3 seconds something is happening that is good. Maybe you are even starting the squeeze a bit early. You only need to shoot more tens to qualify as a real "GURU" Good shooting partner in our path for enlightenment Bill Horton
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
HI Steve,
I should be on my way you bed but am crazy enough to sit down here instead. My first concern, re trigger, is to see whether or not we have a real disagreement.
In the second part of your quote, where the proccess is laid out step by step, you mention aiming area, deliberately picking up the front site, acheiving a rough alignment as you (I assume deliberately) settle, and then concentrate on alignent as the shot breaks. So we see a sequence which spells out the relative moment in time where each of the actions is acheived with the one exception of the trigger squeeze.
In order to know whether we are reading form the same page, I need to know this one thing:At what point do you begin to squeeze the trigger?
Best Regards,
Gordon
I should be on my way you bed but am crazy enough to sit down here instead. My first concern, re trigger, is to see whether or not we have a real disagreement.
In the first part of this quote you say that the trigger can be automatic once inititated. But do you consciously initiate it?Steve Swartz wrote:- Triggering can be trained to be perfect and perfectly automatic- once initiated, you don't have to/shouldn't try to control or micromanage it
The process is to approach the aiming area, pick up the front sight physically and mentally, achieve rough alignment as you settle, then concentrate on perfecting alignment during the settle as the shot breaks.
In the second part of your quote, where the proccess is laid out step by step, you mention aiming area, deliberately picking up the front site, acheiving a rough alignment as you (I assume deliberately) settle, and then concentrate on alignent as the shot breaks. So we see a sequence which spells out the relative moment in time where each of the actions is acheived with the one exception of the trigger squeeze.
In order to know whether we are reading form the same page, I need to know this one thing:At what point do you begin to squeeze the trigger?
Best Regards,
Gordon
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Ralf
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Guest
Re: Metrics
Indeed. I have so much trouble grasping your posts Steve. English isn't my native language, but still...2650 Plus wrote:Just to begin, What the heck is a " Metric " Steve you seem to be translating what ever is said into your jargon. There is more than enough said about shooting that is flat wrong and to further confuse the shooting process with strange and confusing word smithing does not advance the sport.
yer, my native language is australian, I have a lot of trouble with steve as well. down here we speak english!
you can argue all day about the process of how to fire a shot because at the end of the day it is not that important.
it is important that it is sustainable for you.
it is important at the release.
how you get there is not so important, long as it is sustainable for you. or consistent, whatever.
I think you could shoot well using most, if not all the processes each individual thinks is the best. so the arguement would continue indefinately.
some would suit some individuals better, in time you give each a go and decide.
what I normally do is not one of the methods raised, but still finding my way with a pistol, so maybe will change at some point, but doubt it at the moment.
I imagine the best way for a new pistol shooter would be steady, watch sights and commence a smooth squeeze till it goes off.
issues I see with new shooters is no trigger control. until you learn this there would be no help any other way.
but once you master this, any other way would feel like shooting left handed, and you may find you would rather not change.
my thoughts on the discussion
you can argue all day about the process of how to fire a shot because at the end of the day it is not that important.
it is important that it is sustainable for you.
it is important at the release.
how you get there is not so important, long as it is sustainable for you. or consistent, whatever.
I think you could shoot well using most, if not all the processes each individual thinks is the best. so the arguement would continue indefinately.
some would suit some individuals better, in time you give each a go and decide.
what I normally do is not one of the methods raised, but still finding my way with a pistol, so maybe will change at some point, but doubt it at the moment.
I imagine the best way for a new pistol shooter would be steady, watch sights and commence a smooth squeeze till it goes off.
issues I see with new shooters is no trigger control. until you learn this there would be no help any other way.
but once you master this, any other way would feel like shooting left handed, and you may find you would rather not change.
my thoughts on the discussion
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Guest
Funny: scores in excess of 570 with the FP were shot in the 1960's with just a simple process. I wonder if we may be overthinking things, the scores sure haven't gotten any better. Most good plans have been vetted out over years. Maybe the SST's should pick up some thirty year old UIT Journals and look at some of the scores. I guess the key still is hard work no matter what spin you may put on it. I have to go buy some snake oil now.
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2650 Plus
Metrics ?
First, to the group Steve and I are not enemys, Steve describes an advanced treining concept, Well thought out and possibly the break through we need to advance the parameters of the sport. I describe what my experience has taught me to be the way a shot should be fired. Check my posts and you will find that I only deal with this issue, Besides occasionally picking a fight with Steve, that is my total interest in posting to this forum Bill Horton, How a perfect shot is fired.... Steve the training concept to get you there. I hope this is not too hard to follow. Dam I love this sport, Good Shooting Bill Horton
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
mission statement
Folks,
My interest in posting on this board comes from the pure pleasure of rubbing shoulders with people who really care about shooting, and my hope to learn things which will allow me to climb out of the intermediate level.
As such, I am the perfect guinea pig for Steve's methods and a perfect sponge for the words of experience which Bill provides.
I also would like to offer up my own reality check on what normal shooters have to deal with. Consider the idea of a perfectly honed sub-conscious trigger control. I would love to have such a thing, but in its place I almost certainly have a lot of engrained, subconscious trigger ERRORS. After all, that is what being intermediate is all about. You have years of habits, and you are on a plateau. Hence the habits have got to be deficient. And that means that things have got to be pulled out and analysed one by one. Things that are unconscious at the master level have got to be practiced deliberately. I have to decide when I am going to start squeezing, and I have to stick to one method until it shows promise or failure.
So far, the exercises I follow to improve the mechanics of the squeeze are: 1) firing eyes closed 2)firing on a blank target 3)fring on a regular target. I also try to get the right trigger direction by fitting the gun to my hand with the trigger pulled back firmly and building the grip around the pull.
Are there other drills that people do ? Other suggestions?
Thanks for your assitance, patience and comradeship.
Best Regards,
Gordon
P.S. Steve: I still want to know when you think the squeeze should start.
My interest in posting on this board comes from the pure pleasure of rubbing shoulders with people who really care about shooting, and my hope to learn things which will allow me to climb out of the intermediate level.
As such, I am the perfect guinea pig for Steve's methods and a perfect sponge for the words of experience which Bill provides.
I also would like to offer up my own reality check on what normal shooters have to deal with. Consider the idea of a perfectly honed sub-conscious trigger control. I would love to have such a thing, but in its place I almost certainly have a lot of engrained, subconscious trigger ERRORS. After all, that is what being intermediate is all about. You have years of habits, and you are on a plateau. Hence the habits have got to be deficient. And that means that things have got to be pulled out and analysed one by one. Things that are unconscious at the master level have got to be practiced deliberately. I have to decide when I am going to start squeezing, and I have to stick to one method until it shows promise or failure.
So far, the exercises I follow to improve the mechanics of the squeeze are: 1) firing eyes closed 2)firing on a blank target 3)fring on a regular target. I also try to get the right trigger direction by fitting the gun to my hand with the trigger pulled back firmly and building the grip around the pull.
Are there other drills that people do ? Other suggestions?
Thanks for your assitance, patience and comradeship.
Best Regards,
Gordon
P.S. Steve: I still want to know when you think the squeeze should start.
Following Ed Hall, JP O'Connor, Nygord advice, i start trigger squeze descending upon target, focusing aligning sight and setting aligned untill shoot goes off. When things go right, i believe shoot will goes off byself, and i don't feel my finger really pulling the last travel or trigger, is subcounscious do that.
I don't stop squeezing until shot passed, if i "feel" i must stop squeezing for wathever reason i abort. (mmhh.. this is the right behavior i'll try to train my mind, and a lot of courage and willforce is required to perform exactly during match)
I must automatize this action by training with blank card, to exclude go/no go procedure: execute only, withouth any doubt the entire sequence, and stay aligned untill shot goes off. If emotional think, or external penetrated the process, i abort, expect time for that shoot elapse (1min 15) and restart. Sure take time to do this, but using rigorous willforce, it will.
I trained seriously in this way during season beginning, about 3 weeks, the 4th week planned match simulation: go well, but i identified some mistake during match management; so next day i did another match simulation, with correction to match management, and result was way better score, actual pb on training.
I want to underline that for me require a lot of effort, during match require stay fully focused on behaviour, because as soon you link the hole in the paper with the score, i start worring about how good is this match, and how many tens i can do; obviously i start doing eight.
Life is not simple, work is hard, enjoy the sport. ;)
Best regards,
LukeP.
I don't stop squeezing until shot passed, if i "feel" i must stop squeezing for wathever reason i abort. (mmhh.. this is the right behavior i'll try to train my mind, and a lot of courage and willforce is required to perform exactly during match)
I must automatize this action by training with blank card, to exclude go/no go procedure: execute only, withouth any doubt the entire sequence, and stay aligned untill shot goes off. If emotional think, or external penetrated the process, i abort, expect time for that shoot elapse (1min 15) and restart. Sure take time to do this, but using rigorous willforce, it will.
I trained seriously in this way during season beginning, about 3 weeks, the 4th week planned match simulation: go well, but i identified some mistake during match management; so next day i did another match simulation, with correction to match management, and result was way better score, actual pb on training.
I want to underline that for me require a lot of effort, during match require stay fully focused on behaviour, because as soon you link the hole in the paper with the score, i start worring about how good is this match, and how many tens i can do; obviously i start doing eight.
Life is not simple, work is hard, enjoy the sport. ;)
Best regards,
LukeP.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Gordon:
- All of the first stage "and then some" during initial alignment
- "Everything except for that last little bit" asap after recongizing stable settle
- "Whatever is left over" at that same time that alignment is perfected
Also
- Developing perfect, subconscious trigger takes work. It is also the most improtant thing you can do (or not) and is THE prerequisite for everything else
P.S. check out the last year of "Sights Drive Trigger vs. Trigger Drives Sights" type discussions for all the background.
We have been here before. Human nature is a very funny thing.
- All of the first stage "and then some" during initial alignment
- "Everything except for that last little bit" asap after recongizing stable settle
- "Whatever is left over" at that same time that alignment is perfected
Also
- Developing perfect, subconscious trigger takes work. It is also the most improtant thing you can do (or not) and is THE prerequisite for everything else
P.S. check out the last year of "Sights Drive Trigger vs. Trigger Drives Sights" type discussions for all the background.
We have been here before. Human nature is a very funny thing.
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Luke,LukeP wrote:I want to underline that for me require a lot of effort, during match require stay fully focused on behaviour, because as soon you link the hole in the paper with the score, i start worring about how good is this match, and how many tens i can do; obviously i start doing eight.
Life is not simple, work is hard, enjoy the sport. ;)
Thank you very much for this very helpful description. And congratulatons on your PB. I see that we have the same problem of maintaining intensity throughout the match. If I start weak, I usually finish strong. Most often, I start well, and then there is a relaxation which costs plenty of points. It's as though my mind has got the "mission accomplished" signal after the first fifteen shots or so. And then it takes a bad streak to wake me up again.
This sport is very different from one like hockey where one brilliant play can put you back in the game. This idea of perfection shot after shot is a really unique challenge.
Best Regards,
Gordon
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Steve,Steve Swartz wrote: - All of the first stage "and then some" during initial alignment
- "Everything except for that last little bit" asap after recongizing stable settle
- "Whatever is left over" at that same time that alignment is perfected.
Considering that these three phases are connected and even overlapping, I would say this comes so close to continuous squeeze that discussing the difference would lead us into chicken versus egg territory.
Also
So then, what would be your trigger specific drills for someone who really needs them?Steve Swartz wrote: - Developing perfect, subconscious trigger takes work. It is also the most improtant thing you can do (or not) and is THE prerequisite for everything else
Best Regards,
Gordon
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
I'll dig up the previous posts when i get the time (currently out of town taking SAP training).
i have posted previously a matrix of drills and will do so again in even more detail in hte next week or so.
A lot of it is centered on variations of dry fire/trigger pumps against a neutral surface of course.
Note to Bill H: if your trigger squeeze is disturbing your sight alignment (your comment on why aligning first then squeezing trigger is "impossible") then I would humbly submit your trigger control isn't very well developed . . .
Note to Gordon: if you have never turned the wheels first before moving the car your driver's ed training on K and W turns (as well as parallel parking) may have been somewhat substandard. If positioning the wheels before moving causes you to lunge into the ditch, please don't drive in my state!
i have posted previously a matrix of drills and will do so again in even more detail in hte next week or so.
A lot of it is centered on variations of dry fire/trigger pumps against a neutral surface of course.
Note to Bill H: if your trigger squeeze is disturbing your sight alignment (your comment on why aligning first then squeezing trigger is "impossible") then I would humbly submit your trigger control isn't very well developed . . .
Note to Gordon: if you have never turned the wheels first before moving the car your driver's ed training on K and W turns (as well as parallel parking) may have been somewhat substandard. If positioning the wheels before moving causes you to lunge into the ditch, please don't drive in my state!
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Steve Swartz wrote: A lot of it is centered on variations of dry fire/trigger pumps against a neutral surface of course.
Steve,- All of the first stage "and then some" during initial alignment
- "Everything except for that last little bit" asap after recognizing stable settle
- "Whatever is left over" at that same time that alignment is perfected
I don't understand how dry fire/trigger pumps against a blank target trains your mind to 'automagically' do the last little bit at the moment of perfected alignment and minimal/stable hold.
I think I understand your training methodology, and I think I understand Bill's process flow narrative, but I don't see how your dialog provides a way for me to train for the flow.
Fred
P.S. Good luck on the SAP training. When I retired in '96, my employer was starting a program to introduce SAP into my division. When I returned on a consulting gig, ten years later, it was still not quite in place.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
The reason for the surface to be neutral is so it won't 1) distract you mentally from the purpose of your training; and 2) distract the focus of your eye physically from focus on the front sight.
Further away is generally better but if the surface is truly neutral it won't matter much.
Also-
As to shooting in the wind-
the point would be?
Are you presuming that wind would interfere with the execution of the process I have been describing?
I honestly don't understand what wind has to do with it . . .
Further away is generally better but if the surface is truly neutral it won't matter much.
Also-
As to shooting in the wind-
the point would be?
Are you presuming that wind would interfere with the execution of the process I have been describing?
I honestly don't understand what wind has to do with it . . .
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Fred,Fred Mannis wrote: Steve,
I don't understand how dry fire/trigger pumps against a blank target trains your mind to 'automagically' do the last little bit at the moment of perfected alignment and minimal/stable hold.
This exercise can only train you to let go when the gun feels steady, which is to say when the hold/settle is good, not optimal, because the more precise visual feedback of the bullseye is not available.
Compare what LukeP says:
From this description, I think we see that blank target practise is made to order to school a constant trigger squeeze, smooth from one end to the other, with no "if's or ands" no discrete phases, and certainly no "extra little bits".i start trigger squeze descending upon target, focusing aligning sight and setting aligned untill shoot goes off. ...I must automatize this action by training with blank card, to exclude go/no go procedure: execute only, withouth any doubt the entire sequence, and stay aligned untill shot goes off
As stated, the blank card removes any visual clue you could use for that final step, whether conscious or unconscious. And the value of practicing without the possibility of a meaningful "little bit" is that it removes the paralyzing neccesity to wait for the very last instant before you are really sure whether you are going to shoot or not.
In my case, the more I shoot against the bull, the moe I try to fiddle with the right instant of release and the worse my group gets. I have a blank target set up in the next postion beside mine. I fire a string or two into the blank card and then come back to the bull. I try to shoot exactly as I did at the blank, which is to say I just ignore the possibility of a fine tune release, and the group generally comes back together.
At any rate, leaving aside the question of whether Bill's method is better than Steve's, the blank target drill trains you for the constant squeeze, not the optimal moment.
Best Regards,
Gordon