Advice Needed

[cxiaoga]

[quote="Russ “Chinese buffet”(attractive price, service & no tips ;) and VIP room at Upscale Italian Restaurant.[/quote]
You don't pay tips to the waiter and waitress? Those guys and girls work in Chinese buffet only get $2 an hour wage. They rely on tips to make living. If you are satisfied with their food, price and service, please respect their work like your professional coaching class.

[Russ]

Usually Chinese Buffets require 15% tip. First, I usually pay less there than at is customary at regular restaurants where service is more frequent and where you are not expected to leave your chair.

Secondly, my conversations with Steve here on TT attract a lot of attention to this board, providing comic relief and genuine entertainment value, which is ultimately a good thing for business.

Third, since 2005, I would argue that Steve has reformed his beliefs about subconscious performance to some extent, ultimately making his theories more complete and grounded. His current tips and advice appear to be more developed versions of what they were 3 years ago.

Fourth, though Steve's advice brings much benefit to the community as a whole, most of it simply does not interest me personally, as my interests in AP lay beyond 585, and 565-580 in FP. It is simply not interesting for me to indulge myself in discussions of less advanced performance levels and the issues that concern that whole arena.

Fifth, let's face reality, gentlemen. Many of you purchased highly priced shooting equipment, hoping that these machines, as well as this wonderfully friendly message board, would be the only tools you need to become accomplished Olympic Style Pistol Shooters. My personal advice would be to start with a more mediocre model of pistol in the beginning stages of your journey, and invest more resources in professional coaching, to cement a grasp of the important fundamentals of the sport, allowing for greater rates of potential progress in scores and fuller understanding of the underlying discipline.

Lastly, what keeps us from understanding each other fully is that we hold ourselves to different standards of performance and perhaps have different ultimate goals in our respective athletic careers. The knowledge that helps one make the leaps between the highest levels of performance cannot be relayed very easily over the internet. Only private, face-to-face instruction is what allows a coach to evaluate the totality of an individual student's habits and performance, to reform them into something more conducive to a greater level of success in the sport, in my opinion.

This should be enough for tonight.

[RobStubbs]

My personal advice would be to start with a more mediocre model of pistol in the beginning stages of your journey, and invest more resources in professional coaching, to cement a grasp of the important fundamentals of the sport, allowing for greater rates of potential progress in scores and fuller understanding of the underlying discipline.

Only private, face-to-face instruction is what allows a coach to evaluate the totality of an individual student's habits and performance, to reform them into something more conducive to a greater level of success in the sport, in my opinion.

This should be enough for tonight.

Russ,
1) Well you would say that, you have a vested interest.

2) No one has ever said face-to-face coaching is not the best solution. But good coaches are as rare as rocking horse poop, and bad ones aren't exactly common. What a forum such as this can do is help shooters progress, answer some questions, give them some advice, and probably best of all help fire up their enthusiasm to be the best they can and seek out a good coach. If it achieves that for just the odd person, then in my opinion, it's been an overwhelming success !

Rob.

[Fred Mannis]

Russ,
Your command of written English has also improved substantially over the past three years. I believe that much, but not all, of the nastiness I have observed has been caused by misunderstanding that results from poor/inadequate communication.

Fred

[Fred Mannis]

Fifth, let's face reality, gentlemen. Many of you purchased highly priced shooting equipment, hoping that these machines, as well as this wonderfully friendly message board, would be the only tools you need to become accomplished Olympic Style Pistol Shooters. My personal advice would be to start with a more mediocre model of pistol in the beginning stages of your journey, and invest more resources in professional coaching, to cement a grasp of the important fundamentals of the sport, allowing for greater rates of potential progress in scores and fuller understanding of the underlying discipline.

Russ,
Good advice, especially for a new shooter just starting out today, but not valid for much of the 53 years that I have been shooting handguns in the U.S. During most of those years there were very, very few professional coaches available except for the college and military teams. Like most, I learned to shoot by watching and talking to more experienced shooters. As Steve has pointed out, some of that stuff was not helpful.

When I took up shotgun, some 20 years ago, I was surprised at the number of professional coaches available, many within an hours drive. While there has been an increase in professional coaching in handgun, almost all of it has been in action shooting - IPSC, IDPA, self defense. The Brian Zins clinics for Bullseye being the outstanding exception.

So the mindset around learning/teaching precision handgun shooting that I, and many of my friends have, is quite different from the one you were brought up with in Russia where you learned to shoot under the guidance of experienced teachers.

Regards,
Fred

[Steve Swartz]

Russ:

My primary interest of course is in getting the 565+ MAP/535+ FP shooter into the 590+/580+ range.

However

- Most shooters capable of world class performance never even get to "almost world class level;" and
- All world class shooters have to get through the "near world class level" first

Therefore

Understanding how shooting performance "stages" for individuals, and what holds them back, is a primary concern. Releasing the roadbloacks or constraints for them- or helping them to find those roadbloacks or constraints and overcoming them- is the goal. Well, my goal.

And

Yes, I would like to think I have not stopped learning. But the fundamentals don't change.

[Russ]

[quote="Steve Swartz"]Russ:
Yes, I would like to think I have not stopped learning. But the fundamentals don't change.[/quote]

"....fundamentals don't change..."

But it is not in my point of view, I see it slightly different and I told you about that in the year of 2005.

[Steve Swartz]

Sorry all for losing focus and taking the bait.

[Russ]

I’m OK with you Steve. I’m respecting your accomplishment on TT.
Long time ago I was stack on level of performance AP 572-574 and FP 545-555 for many years… after that I start studying as you do. I hope you will get it some day.

I remember we shake our hands in Toronto at AP Final Canadian Grand Prix :))

[shadow]

There is no need to apologize "for taking the bait". Perhaps one of you - Russ or Steve - can explain to me what is going here. You are both accomplished shooters and I would love to hear some pointers. I don't need to read about Itailian or Chinese restaurants as I eat my Cheerios.

[Russ]

The description of the pin "Master of Sports International Level of Russia" this pin is the recognition of the highest status on sport performance in Russia. Any holders for this status in pistol target shooting for example: in slow fire discipline it will be disrespectful for them to perform AP less then 574 and FP less than 550. My pin is #1506. Many athletes all over Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus have this highly recognizable status. Many of them can be known around target shooting community in those countries, but not many of them can be known outside the borders. It means those countries have big pool of athletes who can easily be replaced any time on national team level.
So, in retrospective of my performance in “Canadian Air Pistol Grand Prix” and 2007 USAS National by analyzing my score performance it was disaster for me, but for some of you my scores looks attractive. I have only one excuse for myself: I didn’t practice as I was supposed to do and I had a lot of technical problems with my FP and Standard Pistol and Air Pistol. My Air Pistol, Binelli Kite, which I just purchased before competition with no time to modify grip and some of you noticed it and also asked questions about it.

[David Levene]

Congratulations Russ, that is indeed a recognition of high shooting ability.

I fail to see however that it is relevant to this discussion. Over the years I have known great shooters who made lousy coaches and great coaches who were far from high level shooters. The two skills are not necessarily linked.

Again though, congratulations on your shooting achievements.

[Russ]

The reason is to jastify my point of scores view as a certain level of problems, which can be fixed.
If you have obligations perform at least FP over 550 & AP over 574 ...
you must know how to do this.... Right?
And I did it From 1980 to 1998.
Is it possible for me to explain how I did it for all those years or it's kind of a mystery behind it? I'm one of many who can do the same....

[David Levene]

The reason is to jastify my point of scores view as a certain level of problems, which can be fixed.

It's not your fault Russ but your answer did not really make sense in English (but much more sense than any answer I could give in your mother tongue).

Your answer did however remind me of what my coach used to tell me. "Ability is permanent, performance is temporary". his use of the words "permanent" and "temporary" may not have been totally correct, but I knew exactly what he meant.

[shadow]

What is the reason for the ongoing back and forth posts from Steve and Russ? Do they have different approaches to shooting are are they feuding like "the Hatfields and McCoys"? Sorry, this is strictly a US phrase.

[2650 Plus]

I reached the point where I was unwilling to waste my time with a coach that i was out shooting . I have concluded that shooting is so much a mental persuit that I sincerly believe that since I can out shoot soneone I already know more about the correct principiles necessary to perform at my peak than the would be coach has yet learned. This does not apply to someone that has at sometime in the past been able to perform at a higher level than I am able to approach. I believe that the proper place for Russ to ply his trade is at the national training center in Colorado Springs. Steve proposes interesting and very advanced concepts, some that IMHO would be destructive to a beginning shooter as they would lead him/ her to attempt to shoot in a way that their state of training would be inadiquet to support and he often ommits the necessary months and years of specific training a shooter must commit to in order to succeed in using his concepts. Most of all, I deeply resent what appears to be jealous put downs of a man who is obviously a superior shooter and coach by those who are clearly his inferior in our sport. I prefer Ed Halls information because it is closer to what I personally believe are the fundamentals and techniqes necessary to suceed in the persuit of excellence in this sport.

[David Levene]

I reached the point where I was unwilling to waste my time with a coach that i was out shooting .

I find that to be a strange comment. If everyone took that attitude then how would records improve.

Apart from in my first 6 months of shooting I never had a coach I couldn't out-shoot.

[Fred Mannis]

. I have concluded that shooting is so much a mental pursuit that I sincerely believe that since I can out shoot someone I already know more about the correct principles necessary to perform at my peak than the would be coach has yet learned.

So, you will not accept advice unless the giver of the advice has demonstrated its effectiveness e.g. by being a better shooter. I can understand your rationale - changing from your current process to a new, unproven one, is a risk. But I am sure you know the story of Tiger Woods, who decided that in order to improve from his already high level of performance, he would have to learn a different stroke. Apparently this was the advice of his coach. But he took the risk, spent off season and much of the playing season mastering his new process, and ended up performing at an even higher level.

[pwh]

Yep....Tiger Woods is open to anything that could possibly improve his already masterful skills. Might be a good lesson to everyone in and of itself!

~Phil

[2650 Plus]

I shot in an enviornment where there was so much negative influence that it caused stagnation in my scores for several years. I got out of the negatativsm and starting reversing the negative with the opposite positive approaches and in less than six months my scores improved from mid 2620,s to over 2650. Many coaches are quick to say "you jerked the trigger" or " You must have been looking at the target". The most distructive to my performance was the famous " Dont start the day off with a seven" I didn't recieve incorect advice , just advice couched in negative terms from coaches that had never broken 2600. I learned more from T.D. Smith in one afternoon at a picnick than from all the professional [ ? ] coaches I ever came in contact with. I think the rest was learned by much the same method Steve uses. ie: I thought about what I was trying to accomplish and occasionally a light would begin to glow in the dark. I simplified my thought process, rehersed my shot sequence until I could execute it consistantly and exactly over and over in match conditions and developed an aggressive ,confident attitude That sustained me through hours of competition. Good Shooting Bill Horton