Error Analysis

[hardhit]

Hi all,

I have seen a while back a target with text on it explaining some of the possible causes of errors for Rifle shooting.

It showed a bull with arrows pointing to each quadrant like errors to the upper left, errors to the left and the possible causes for these errors.

Does someone know where I could find this picture ?

Regards,
Peter

[pwh]

Not sure where you saw this but it may have been a print out with comments made by someone from a SCAT system. Not saying that it was as I have never seen it but, if it were, that would be an analysis for a particular shooter and would not be of much use to you. His/her errors might very well not be the same as yours given a variance of unknown factors for each individual shooter. If I'm wrong in my guess I certainly would like to see it myself.

~Phil

[Guest]

I know of this one, but it is for pistol.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm
Ter

[hardhit]

Yep,

This is what I was looking for but then for rifle.
Has someone got an idea of where I could find this ?

Regards,

[Rutty]

I have one but it is pretty basic. It is part of a MSWord diagram and doesn't lend itself to posting (my image host only caters for .jpg etc)
I could email it to you if you wish, PM me with an address if you want it.

Rutty

[2650 Plus]

Please remember that you are trying to learn how to shoot good shots. I can't describe how little you can learn fron this nonsense. Best advise I can possibly provide is to concentrate on analizing only your best shots and learning how to repeat them at will. Even looking at the error pie chart works against you because it subconsiously suggests the possibility of a bad shot.

[hackerjack]

Please remember that you are trying to learn how to shoot good shots. I can't describe how little you can learn fron this nonsense. Best advise I can possibly provide is to concentrate on analizing only your best shots and learning how to repeat them at will. Even looking at the error pie chart works against you because it subconsiously suggests the possibility of a bad shot.

Nonsense it certainly is not.

Of course analysing one shot at a time on this basis is not that helpful, but by analysing 10-20 shots in a series you can deduce the most likely cause of problems with these charts, especially with relative beginners.

I would say that 90% of the time if you can spot a pattern of distribution when looking at the outlaying shots and you can pin it down to one or two possible problems, this is what the chart gives you.

[Rutty]

Please remember that you are trying to learn how to shoot good shots. I can't describe how little you can learn fron this nonsense. Best advise I can possibly provide is to concentrate on analizing only your best shots and learning how to repeat them at will. Even looking at the error pie chart works against you because it subconsiously suggests the possibility of a bad shot.

That's fine as long as you have sufficient technical knowledge to be certain that you are concentrating on the correct areas of technique. This is the "Hard Skills/Soft Skills" balance. It does not matter how hard you try to wish the shots into the centre, unless you have the fundamental techniques buttoned up you will not achieve the best results. Error analysis is a tool that helps you allocate your training, technical and mental, in the most productive areas to consistently achieve the best results.

Rutty

[2650 Plus]

Don't spend your time trying to figure out the why and there fore of the bad shots. This is not only counter productive, it is destructive to your overall performance because it emphasises the negative. Do yourself a great favor and concentrate your efforts on analizing and repeating your best shots. One of my old coaches used to say just before every match "Don't start the day off with a seven".My version of this is "Start the day of with a technically good shot and keep on shooting more of them through out the day. You will be suprised how many more competitions you will win. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Rutty]

Bill,

I find your reply somewhat confusing:

Don't spend your time trying to figure out the why and there fore of the bad shots. This is not only counter productive, it is destructive to your overall performance because it emphasises the negative. Do yourself a great favor and concentrate your efforts on analizing and repeating your best shots.

In order to develop good technique you must have a sound understanding of its fundamentals and be able to identify its separate components. This implies a good technical knowledge of which an understanding of the pschycology is one element and the physiological factors another. No one other than you has mentioned "Bad Shots", the rest of us have discussed errors and they can be corrected by the proper application of knowledge.

Had you requested a copy of the diagram that I supplied to those that requested it you would have found that it contains more than a simple diagram and includes advice on simple trend identification. In short it promotes a logical approach to performance improvement and in so doing is pschycologically beneficial since it provides positive focus for training.

I feel that I must pose to you the following question:

If you are to deny technical knowledge to some, then to whom do you entrust it, why and under what circumstances?

Rutty

[edster99]

I think there's a philosophical difference between you : One says ' concentrate on and fix the shots that havent gone where you want them' - which Bill calls Bad Shots - and the other says 'Keep concentrating on improving your technique and your shots will naturally go in to the middle'. One focusses on the ones you dont want, one focusses on the one you do.

My approach is that focussing on what you don't want is dangerous - your subconcious just focusses on it, and has difficulty with the concept of not doing it. Rather like - dont think of Pink Elephants.

In pistol on this site there's plenty of technique advice available for what you should do. I would prefer to ingrain that, and shoot well based on doing the right things.

I'm not suggesting that this is what you are doing, but shooting well 'by default' by avoiding various bad things doesnt seem to be the way forward.

But - maybe that doesnt apply to rifle.

anyway, ignore my ramblings.

cheers

Ed

[Pat McCoy]

I think we have a difference of opinion based on differing levels of expertise of the shooters.

We use a matrix to determine where the poorer shots are comming from with our intermediate shooters (under 92 or so standing AR). Having them keep track of ten or twenty shots without regard to the score, but based on a plus/minus written note for each shot as to Hold, Trigger Control, Mental set, and sometimes follow thru. We usually get a series of minuses in one column, which allows us to develop training skills pertaining to that weakness. The better the shooter gets, the more often the problem is in the M column.

Once the shooters become advanced or elite shooters (mid to upper 90's standing AR) they find themselves focusing on repeating the good shots they have made.

[blue62]

Rutty

Wanted to thank you for taking the time to e-mail me the chart.
thanks again and good shooting

Dave

[pwh]

Rutty

Wanted to thank you for taking the time to e-mail me the chart.
thanks again and good shooting

Dave

Same here. I appreciate you taking the time in sending it. Have it saved and I'll next make a print out of it. Looks interesting.

~Phil

[Rutty]

This has turned into quite an interesting discussion, so I shall throw another log on the fire with this excerpt from page 141 of "Air Rifle Shooting" published by MEC:

Couch or firing point?
Before we follow the shooter into this murky realm, we really
have to take a step back into reality. Because it mostly
really isn't the tortures of the soul, or the nervous background,
which are the decisive causes of nines and worse. A
glance at the position and the movements usually reveals
much more profane reasons. A poor position, negligence in
the way the rifle is mounted, lousy trigger control and the
absence of any follow-through, easily explain 99% of all mistakes.
That which is so enthusiastically laid at the door of
the mind, is more easily and exhaustively explained in
terms of technical faults which would make the angels
weep. In other words, before you start analysing your childhood,
it is worth taking a look at your position. A proper
check of the zero point, is more effective than positive thinking.
The trigger-tongue should also be fixed in the proper
place, before you resort to autogenic training. To sum up:
you learn to shoot on the firing point, not on the couch!

As I said before, pschycology is important but you ignore the technical skills at your peril.

Rutty

[2650 Plus]

Rutty May I refer you to the olympic gold medalist and his comment that you should base your training on " The Ultimate You" I am well aware that a beginning shooter must start with understanding the fundamentals and through training develope the skill to consistantly perform the act of shooting a technicly solid shot. But , as Lanny Basham has said , that consistancy does not come through concentrating on errors. The MEC book you refered to may be corrected by the very shooter we are trying to assist. I do believe that world record holders, If we could get them into single room , could certainly write a better book on how this sport needs to be approached than anything yet seen. The book you referenced is the closest I have read to the ideal training reference for shooters although Way of the Rifle was also a major improvement in the literature dealing with our sport. Good Shooting , Keep on posting, Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Rutty May I refer you to the olympic gold medalist and his comment that you should base your training on " The Ultimate You" I am well aware that a beginning shooter must start with understanding the fundamentals and through training develope the skill to consistantly perform the act of shooting a technicly solid shot. But , as Lanny Basham has said , that consistancy does not come through concentrating on errors. The MEC book you refered to may be corrected by the very shooter we are trying to assist. I do believe that world record holders, If we could get them into single room , could certainly write a better book on how this sport needs to be approached than anything yet seen. The book you referenced is the closest I have read to the ideal training reference for shooters although Way of the Rifle was also a major improvement in the literature dealing with our sport. Good Shooting , Keep on posting, Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Rutty May I refer you to the olympic gold medalist and his comment that you should base your training on " The Ultimate You" I am well aware that a beginning shooter must start with understanding the fundamentals and through training develope the skill to consistantly perform the act of shooting a technicly solid shot. But , as Lanny Basham has said , that consistancy does not come through concentrating on errors. The MEC book you refered to may be corrected by the very shooter we are trying to assist. I do believe that world record holders, If we could get them into single room , could certainly write a better book on how this sport needs to be approached than anything yet seen. The book you referenced is the closest I have read to the ideal training reference for shooters although Way of the Rifle was also a major improvement in the literature dealing with our sport. Good Shooting , Keep on posting, Bill Horton

[pwh]

Whoops! I think your trigger finger got a bit twitchy there Bill and you hit the submit button a few too many times! All in all a very good grouping nonetheless. lol

On the more serious side I'll have to say this is a very interesting thread.
I'm new to shooting 10M air rifle albeit not new to handling various center fire guns years ago. With that said I'm pretty much open to any advice and trying to glean as much info I can gather be it by books or what I read here. Great little friendly debate as it were and some good input on all sides.

~Phil

[2650 Plus]

I do appologise for the over emphasis as I am really not that dogmatic about the point I was trying to make . Clearly ,one posting would have been sufficient . I was having trouble maintaining contact with the host and kept getting a signal that my coding was incorrect then repeating it with a new access code . Sorry to have wasted so much space. Good Shooting Bill Horton