Tight Grip or Relaxed Grip?

[Kryten]

New to the forum. Being shooting pistol for a few years now, but only started ISSF Style shooting recently. I have been playing around with various stances and positions. What do most successful shooters use? A tight grip on the gun, just short of tremor or a relatively relaxed grip? Also what about stance. Side on or Oblique?

Cheers

[Richard H]

New to the forum. Being shooting pistol for a few years now, but only started ISSF Style shooting recently. I have been playing around with various stances and positions. What do most successful shooters use? A tight grip on the gun, just short of tremor or a relatively relaxed grip? Also what about stance. Side on or Oblique?

Cheers

The short answer is yes. There are sucessful shooters that use very light grips (barely holding onto the gun) and there are shooters that squeeze so tight that sap runs out of the grip. It's really something you have to experiment with ans see what works best for you. The one thing is the harder you grip it is easier to develop tendonitis in your elbow (not saying that you will but it is a contributing factor).

[Steve Swartz]

Amen on the tight grip-tendonitis thing.

PROTECT THAT ELBOW!

Steve Swartz

(I believe it's actually the combination of tight grip anbd heavy recoil, not just tight grip alone?)

[Haleva]

Just developed one in the recent few months (tendonitis in the elbow) is there any good way to fight it (cure it at first and then some exercises to prevent it) ?

[Richard H]

Amen on the tight grip-tendonitis thing.

PROTECT THAT ELBOW!

Steve Swartz

(I believe it's actually the combination of tight grip anbd heavy recoil, not just tight grip alone?)

I agree, both are contributing factors as are pistol weight and an oversize grip too. Another bad thing for the elbow is the hyper extension which you often see.

I've seen this with people who just shoot air, so you don't need the recoil.

[Richard H]

Just developed one in the recent few months (tendonitis in the elbow) is there any good way to fight it (cure it at first and then some exercises to prevent it) ?

Rest, Ice, rest, more ice. I've used Traumeel cream and ointment which is a homeopathic anti inflamitory. If you hyper flex your elbow that is another thing you might want to avoid. I went to a slightly softer elbow, it didn't hurt my groups or scores but did reduce the stress in the elbow.

For practicing while injured you might want to go to practicing from a rest. It lets you practice all sorts of elements without the weight of the pistol stressing the elbow.

Sorry we didn't get a chance to meet up in the summer when you were here.

[Haleva]

Why oversize grip is a contributing factor ?
I too shoot an AP and FP and developed the tendonitis during AP only training.

I alway though that my medium grip is a little oversize (I think small will fit me better since I shoot small morini on my toz) .

How one protect his elbow ?

[Richard H]

Why oversize grip is a contributing factor ?
I too shoot an AP and FP and developed the tendonitis during AP only training.

I alway though that my medium grip is a little oversize (I think small will fit me better since I shoot small morini on my toz) .

How one protect his elbow ?

If you can't adjust it small enough the backstrap at the top of the grip makes the pistol appear more nose heavy.

When your elbow is better gentle stretches and strengthening excersises will help. Deep tissue massage can also help lossen any scar tissue in the area.

[Steve Swartz]

0. Immediately STOP DOING ANYTHING THAT CAUSES PRESSURE ON THE AFFECTED AREA

1. Seek professional medical attention immediately (as the country song says, "Don't Ask Me How I Know!")

2. 1 above must include an MRI- if you self-diagnose incorrectly, you can make it much worse (see comment from country song above). Also, soft tissue injury like this is very difficult to diagnose- you have an awful lot of stuff going on in your elbow (tendons and ligaments and bursae, Oh My!). It is very easy for a GP/PA/NP etc. to think "Horses" (tendonitis) when as shooters we are more prone to "Zebras" (golfer's elbow vs. tennis elbow?)

3. After the MRI has been properly interpreted, and you have a consultation with your medical professional, seek a referral to a SPECIALIST (see all above) for a "second opinion" (see above)

4. Most important: While complying with 0-3 above, and not doing anything to aggravate the damage in the interim, and seeking all opinions from the most qualified medical professionals . . . FOLLOW ALL INSTRUCTIONS ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION! Don't self-diagnose, don't ask for advice on the internet/from other shooters (you already blew that one) don't self-treat, don't look stuff up on the internet, don't start doing wrist exercises, don't start popping ibuprofen, don't start carrying ice packs around in your shooting kit . . .

IMMEDIATELY PUT EVERYTHING ON HOLD DURING THE TIME IT TAKES TO GET IN DEPTH DIAGNOSTIC ANALYIS FROM TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS SPECIALIZING IN INJURIES TO THE ELBOW!!!!!!!!

5. And, after ignoring the advice above (you will), don't blame anyone but yourself!

Steve Swartz

[Richard H]

Steve's advice is best. I did have mine diagnosed by a MD, no MRI though. The stuff above was what has given to me, everyone is different so you are always best getting it diagnosed by a professional. The above was not treatment advice, it more of an informational type post of what I had to go through YMMV.

[Steve Swartz]

OBTW I'm a pretty smart, well educated guy.

I did all the "right things" in caring for my elbow (ice packs, wearing forearm strap during training, NSAIDs, exercises targeted at preventing "tendonitis" etc.

(never tried the topical creams or homeopathic stuff- that's a discussion for a different day, and not in a public forum)

So it's been about 12 weeks since my surgery, and I have about 95% of my ROM back, about 80% of my strength back, and am up to about 30 dry-fires, every other day. I am pretty much pain free now (for the first time in 6 years) when I train . . . the physical therapist has had to do an awful lot of "adjustment" (ouch!) initially but things are going much better now.

What I thought was "tendonitis" (diagnosed by three separate MDs on three separate ocasions) that I had been "managing" the last 6 years or so . . . with treatments recommended by them . . . was something else entirely that was immediately picked up by an MRI, properly read by a radiologist and interpreted by a hand/arm specialist.

Please, do yourself a favor- as shooters, we have somewhat unique circumstances that the typical doc won't even think of when assessing our symptoms. You have to see a specialist, and discuss exaclty what it is you do with your hand/wrist etc during shooting.

This is somewhat of a "hot button" issue for me- does it show? =;^)

Steve Swartz

[Richard H]

OBTW I'm a pretty smart, well educated guy.

I did all the "right things" in caring for my elbow (ice packs, wearing forearm strap during training, NSAIDs, exercises targeted at preventing "tendonitis" etc.

(never tried the topical creams or homeopathic stuff- that's a discussion for a different day, and not in a public forum)

So it's been about 12 weeks since my surgery, and I have about 95% of my ROM back, about 80% of my strength back, and am up to about 30 dry-fires, every other day. I am pretty much pain free now (for the first time in 6 years) when I train . . . the physical therapist has had to do an awful lot of "adjustment" (ouch!) initially but things are going much better now.

What I thought was "tendonitis" (diagnosed by three separate MDs on three separate ocasions) that I had been "managing" the last 6 years or so . . . with treatments recommended by them . . . was something else entirely that was immediately picked up by an MRI, properly read by a radiologist and interpreted by a hand/arm specialist.

Please, do yourself a favor- as shooters, we have somewhat unique circumstances that the typical doc won't even think of when assessing our symptoms. You have to see a specialist, and discuss exaclty what it is you do with your hand/wrist etc during shooting.

This is somewhat of a "hot button" issue for me- does it show? =;^)

Steve Swartz

Steve if you don't mind what actual condition did you have? If you prefer PM me or email me as a coach I'm always interested in this stuff. We can also talk about the Homeopathic voodoo stuff (which I'm very sceptical of myself but.....

And as for a hot button issue with you I think you've managed to keep your self composed and we've all had a very good exchange of ideas.

[Haleva]

After 3 month that I did not stop training (except 3 weeks break I took which helped only a little...) I went to a family MD which did not check the elbow at all and based on what I told him (pains location and movements that cause it) gave me an anti infection medication.

I also setup a consulting session with a sport MD specialize in arm injuries.

The problem is that if you're not half dead , no one gives you MRI test.
I guess I need to insist ....

Anyway thanks and I'm ignoring all your advices ;)

[Richard H]

After 3 month that I did not stop training (except 3 weeks break I took which helped only a little...) I went to a family MD which did not check the elbow at all and based on what I told him (pains location and movements that cause it) gave me an anti infection medication.

I also setup a consulting session with a sport MD specialize in arm injuries.

The problem is that if you're not half dead , no one gives you MRI test.
I guess I need to insist ....

Anyway thanks and I'm ignoring all your advices ;)

Where are you located? I know in Canada there are private clinics that will do MRI's for you for cash and it's not as expensive as one might think. That's how they know pro athletes have soft tissue damage before the game is over. I know in the states there's lots of places that will do it for cash.

[Haleva]

Israel

[jr_roosa]

First off, I think medical evaluation is a good idea for any new ache or pain that doesn't go away on it's own, especially if it's interfering with performance.

I think that insisting on an MRI as an initial test is a bit misguided. Most tendonitis can be managed conservatively (and golfer's elbow and tennis elbow are tendonitides of a sort). On the other hand a physical exam is a MANDATORY part of the workup, if your MD is treating you without examining you then I think you have a good reason to escalate your care to a sports specialist, even though general practitioners should be more than capable of diagnosing and beginning treatment of tendonitis.

The problem with getting an MRI right off the bat is that the thing you need is a doc who can diagnose and treat your problem quickly and efficiently, and who is willing to re-evaluate and escalate care if the initial things aren't working. If your doc can't do that, what makes you think that a $3000 test is going to help any?

It's a shame that we have come to measure the quality of our medical care by the number of tests ordered and the price of the drugs perscribed. Sure, there are some lazy doctors out there (some of whom order a ton of tests, some who don't do nearly enough), but if one of your customers came to your office and said, "I need a widget, I don't care how much it costs, and I'm not leaving without one." Is it easier to sell him the widget and send him on his way, or is it easier to explain why he doesn't really need a widget right now?

For tendonitis, your doctor probably doesn't need anything more than his eyes, ears, hands, and brain to diagnose it, and you probably have everything you need to treat it in your house already. Its just a matter of finding the doc who will do the work, tell you the best course of action, and then follow-up to see if things are getting better or worse.

I don't mean to critisize the previous poster at all, it's terrible that he had to go through four doctors before they found out what was wrong and what to do about it. If what your doctor recommends isn't helping, and if that doesn't cause him to re-evaluate your treatment plan and maybe ask for some help from a specialist, then it's probably time to change doctors, not to demand more testing.

-J.

[David Levene]

When I developed shooter's elbow I was lucky, unlucky and stupid, all in one go.

Lucky to be treated by doctors from the British Olympic Medical Centre. They recognised the problem immediately.

Unlucky to be told that I had done quite a bite of damage (like not being able to hold a cup of coffee wasn't enough of a clue) and that for any treatment to be effective I would have to stop shooting for a while.

Stupid enough to ignore the medical advice.

Result, end of competitive shooting career (the surgery they offerred only had a 50% chance of success).

I very rarely go into shouting mode but GET IT INVESTIGATED BY A SPORTS INJURY SPECIALIST IMMEDIATELY AND THEN FOLLOW THE ADVICE YOU ARE GIVEN.

[2650 Plus]

No way would I ever advise anyone else to try what I did. With considerable pain steadily increasing I became so desperate that I resorted to an extreme exercise regimine. The solution was based on the idea that the muscles had weakened and were allowing bones and ligamentals to take the shock of firing and that was the main source of the pain. I started out with a heavy dose of push ups and progressed to one arm push ups working up to thirty reps. Only God knows why it worked , But rather than terminating my shooting career, the pain dissapeared rather quickly. [ I was shooting the 230 grain 45 service load when this happened]. Please dont try this as it could just as easily destroyed the elbow. I just didn't know any better. Good shooting Bill Horton