Correction
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2650 Plus
Correction
I don't count anything but the tens, My percentage of tens gives me the information I need to evaluate my consistancy for the days training or practice. I also think it is very important to be somewhat hard headed about taking every one advice. I only use advice that seems to have a good chance of supporting an improvement in my shooting performance. Good Shooting, Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
The above belongs with stagnated performance
As most of you can tell I shoot better than I use a keyboard. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Steve Swartz
Bill:
So if in Session X you shoot 6/10 tens, and in Session Y you shoot 6/10 tens . . .
. . . what do you work on?
Steve Swartz
(I think Bill's assumption is that he is talking about "performance measures to benchmark progress," and my assumption is that I am talking about "performance measures to improve progress." Two very different things!)
So if in Session X you shoot 6/10 tens, and in Session Y you shoot 6/10 tens . . .
. . . what do you work on?
Steve Swartz
(I think Bill's assumption is that he is talking about "performance measures to benchmark progress," and my assumption is that I am talking about "performance measures to improve progress." Two very different things!)
I thinks there is to much assumptions.
So steve, your saying bill is using results to see what he is doing, and you are using results to see what to do!
This could go on for a while.
At the end of the day results are all that matters. In saying that it is all to easy to forget that results are the end product.
So by focusing on the end product, you are can overlook what you are doing to acheive this. using results only as the bench mark for how the training session went is not good on many levels.
Eventually you will be learning to train to train, not train to compete.
Training results are just that. not something to compare competition results with as they are 2 different things.
At your levels, training results are somewhat irrelevant. You need to get your head around that to progress past your current levels.
Bryan
So steve, your saying bill is using results to see what he is doing, and you are using results to see what to do!
This could go on for a while.
At the end of the day results are all that matters. In saying that it is all to easy to forget that results are the end product.
So by focusing on the end product, you are can overlook what you are doing to acheive this. using results only as the bench mark for how the training session went is not good on many levels.
Eventually you will be learning to train to train, not train to compete.
Training results are just that. not something to compare competition results with as they are 2 different things.
At your levels, training results are somewhat irrelevant. You need to get your head around that to progress past your current levels.
Bryan
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Steve Swartz
Bryan- I think I at least need some clarity to your last post . . . a couple of parts sound 180 deg backwards, but I'm not sure I understand . . .
Your training *approach* should be the same1; *what* techniques you are working on, and at waht level, will certainly change.
But using scores to in any way direct, drive, or foucs your training effort is as wrong the first time you pick up the gun as it is the last.
Using "the number of tens per <whatever> is ok as far as it goes for tracking progress, but it doesn't tell you very much useful in terms of what to work on and how.
Steve
1Improve the behaviors that will have the greatest positive impact on your ability to deliver perfect shots reliably. Notice the objective is to shoot perfectly; not necessarily shoot tens (although more tens is a desireable SIDE EFFECT of shooting more perfectly)
Your training *approach* should be the same1; *what* techniques you are working on, and at waht level, will certainly change.
But using scores to in any way direct, drive, or foucs your training effort is as wrong the first time you pick up the gun as it is the last.
Using "the number of tens per <whatever> is ok as far as it goes for tracking progress, but it doesn't tell you very much useful in terms of what to work on and how.
Steve
1Improve the behaviors that will have the greatest positive impact on your ability to deliver perfect shots reliably. Notice the objective is to shoot perfectly; not necessarily shoot tens (although more tens is a desireable SIDE EFFECT of shooting more perfectly)
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2650 Plus
Technique topping out and scores stagnating
Why do I use score to signal that my current technique needs further refinement? Because I'm not winning and not progressing. Now what to do? I review all my notes containing discussions with the current winners to try and find something that I may have missunderstood or didn't understand and try to incorporate a better concept into my technique that will allow me to continue to improve in my control and reliability. Example of something I don't understand. "Its been reported that Brian Zins has said that he uses pressure of the trigger finger to perfect sight allignment. " I have yet to figure out what he is saying so I havent attempted to incorporate the concept into my shot sequence. I contend that if its working dont change it. If its not working make sure the change is well thought out before you incorporate it. Change for changes sake can lead a shooter into error patterns he may not be ably to overcome. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Ed Hall
My interpretation from Brian Zins' words and discussions, is something like this:2650 Plus wrote:"Its been reported that Brian Zins has said that he uses pressure of the trigger finger to perfect sight allignment. " I have yet to figure out what he is saying so I havent attempted to incorporate the concept into my shot sequence.
If you place perfect sights on the perfect center of the bull and operate the trigger, the perfect sights will move to somewhere else to fire. If you place the perfect sights near the center and then move into the center with the trigger, your shot will happen there. He describes it as standing on the North Pole - wherever you step is south, off of the pole. If, instead, you start next to the North Pole, you can step onto it.
I hope I've not done injustice to his description. It is how I understand it.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
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Steve Swartz
Very interesting.
With this subtle change, Brian Zin's description seems to now support either the "sights drive trigger" OR "triggger drives sights" philosophies . . .
Perhaps it does boil down to personal perception/belief system after all . . .
(For the non-philosophers out there, remember the most important thing is to align the sights, trust your hold, and apply perfect trigger while sights are perfectly aligned and reasonably settled. It will *never* get any better than that!)
With this subtle change, Brian Zin's description seems to now support either the "sights drive trigger" OR "triggger drives sights" philosophies . . .
Perhaps it does boil down to personal perception/belief system after all . . .
(For the non-philosophers out there, remember the most important thing is to align the sights, trust your hold, and apply perfect trigger while sights are perfectly aligned and reasonably settled. It will *never* get any better than that!)
steve, looked at my last post, could of been worded better. So not sure which part you are having trouble with.
results are the only tangable grading system we have, who cares if you shot a perfect group in the 9 ring.
but results are the end product of your process.
to veiw a poorly executed 10 as o/k, and a good shot that wasnt, as not o/k, is a problem if you are using this to gauge you training.
I used to use the same system you do for many years, which has many shortcomings.
I would have you have a shooting plan, and gauge your performance on how well you stuck to it. If you stuck to it, and results were below how well you followed your plan, you need to alter your plan till the results are representative of your shooting ability.
Dont think I know Mr Zins, met a lot of people over the years. from the small amount I have read, he is discussing something that is controlled subconciously. this particular issue can be confusing as not only is it dependant of the individuals perspective, but may well change as our thoughts change
I think it is helpfull to be aware it is happening, but it needs to be veiwed in the right context.
if you are focusing well the shot will always be released on the way in towards the centre of your hold pattern.
you may be uncomfotable, in which case your hold may not be over the 10,
yet you still shoot a 10, by the same controls that has you hold a ten and shoot a 7.
All the training in the world, cannot simulate high level competition. so to learn to shoot well in training at your level is not learning to shoot well in competition. purely by default, your competition results can improve.
as your training results improve, it becomes very frustrating to see your competition results lagging behind, so you train harder, training results increase, and the gap between competition and training can also increase.
training to train!!
training competions would see your competition results higher than your training results alot of the time when done correctly.
and yes, if your not shooting >560 ap, do what steve says
bryan
results are the only tangable grading system we have, who cares if you shot a perfect group in the 9 ring.
but results are the end product of your process.
to veiw a poorly executed 10 as o/k, and a good shot that wasnt, as not o/k, is a problem if you are using this to gauge you training.
I used to use the same system you do for many years, which has many shortcomings.
I would have you have a shooting plan, and gauge your performance on how well you stuck to it. If you stuck to it, and results were below how well you followed your plan, you need to alter your plan till the results are representative of your shooting ability.
Dont think I know Mr Zins, met a lot of people over the years. from the small amount I have read, he is discussing something that is controlled subconciously. this particular issue can be confusing as not only is it dependant of the individuals perspective, but may well change as our thoughts change
I think it is helpfull to be aware it is happening, but it needs to be veiwed in the right context.
if you are focusing well the shot will always be released on the way in towards the centre of your hold pattern.
you may be uncomfotable, in which case your hold may not be over the 10,
yet you still shoot a 10, by the same controls that has you hold a ten and shoot a 7.
All the training in the world, cannot simulate high level competition. so to learn to shoot well in training at your level is not learning to shoot well in competition. purely by default, your competition results can improve.
as your training results improve, it becomes very frustrating to see your competition results lagging behind, so you train harder, training results increase, and the gap between competition and training can also increase.
training to train!!
training competions would see your competition results higher than your training results alot of the time when done correctly.
and yes, if your not shooting >560 ap, do what steve says
bryan
Back to Front
Bill, I think you have got it back to front - its not the tens that win the match, its the errors that lose the match.
Cut the centre out of the target, - for the new shooter, cut out the black ring and ranging up to the expert, the 10 or 9.5 ring.
Shoot your training session - with no shots outside of the hole you just cut out.
If you can do that you have no errors and all shots are acceptable - next time you can make the hole smaller. (saves a lot on targets and patchs).
It stops the errors and the try for the perfect ten, also stops counting shots and string pressure.
Squeeze the foresight back thru the rearsight until the shot goes bang.
Cut the centre out of the target, - for the new shooter, cut out the black ring and ranging up to the expert, the 10 or 9.5 ring.
Shoot your training session - with no shots outside of the hole you just cut out.
If you can do that you have no errors and all shots are acceptable - next time you can make the hole smaller. (saves a lot on targets and patchs).
It stops the errors and the try for the perfect ten, also stops counting shots and string pressure.
Squeeze the foresight back thru the rearsight until the shot goes bang.
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Ed Hall
Hi David M,
(Do keep in mind, this is only my opinion.)
Sorry, but I must differ with your assessment. It may only seem to be a difference of how one looks at something, but I wholeheartedly believe that positive reinforcement is always preferred to negative.
Of course, the above is all my opinion and all comments are always welcome.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
(Do keep in mind, this is only my opinion.)
Sorry, but I must differ with your assessment. It may only seem to be a difference of how one looks at something, but I wholeheartedly believe that positive reinforcement is always preferred to negative.
It is the accumulation of points that wins the match. I could fire half the match with perfect tens, suffer a broken gun, which is not an error, and lose to someone who erred all the way through. We start a match with zero points and build from there. The subtraction method we use for scoring is only a convenience, not the true way we tabulate the scores.First, you wrote:...its not the tens that win the match, its the errors that lose the match.
Although this may seem like a good exercise, it is really negative in nature. The highlights are all the hits outside where you are trying to be. A better, although more difficult way to train, would be to cut away all the part outside your ring of choice.Then, you wrote:Cut the centre out of the target, - for the new shooter, cut out the black ring and ranging up to the expert, the 10 or 9.5 ring.
Shoot your training session - with no shots outside of the hole you just cut out.
Here, we are in agreement...Last, you wrote: Squeeze the foresight back thru the rearsight until the shot goes bang.
Of course, the above is all my opinion and all comments are always welcome.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
Hmm...I do that.........
Hi Ed Hall,
In resonse to this suggestion;
"Although this may seem like a good exercise, it is really negative in nature. The highlights are all the hits outside where you are trying to be. A better, although more difficult way to train, would be to cut away all the part outside your ring of choice"
I have been practicing often using that concept. Someone gave me a Homemade hinged foam target with a 2" washer attached to the foam center with a 1/4" bolt and nut. I replaced the 2" washer with a 1.5" washer and setup at 10 meters. when the pellet strikes the washer, the entire target drops
and is restored upright with a pull on the attached cord. All misses go through the foam, leaving the target upright. My son and I could hit the 1.5" washer 95% of the time, so we replaced the washer with a 1.25" one.
for match final intensity, we replaced the 1.25: with a 3/4" washer. nearly any hit is a high nine or a sure ten... I calm down during those 3/4" washer sessions by dropping my aim onto Silhouette swingers and shooting them offhand for grins. Anyway I'm just beginning to participate in 10 meter AP at Prado, but my son and I love it. He's a far better shooter than me, I'm going to be 66 at the end of December and He's 33...How I love this stuff!
Tony Gallegos Corona, California
ps: You gotta replace the foam back often.. because of literally shooting rings around the washer...
In resonse to this suggestion;
"Although this may seem like a good exercise, it is really negative in nature. The highlights are all the hits outside where you are trying to be. A better, although more difficult way to train, would be to cut away all the part outside your ring of choice"
I have been practicing often using that concept. Someone gave me a Homemade hinged foam target with a 2" washer attached to the foam center with a 1/4" bolt and nut. I replaced the 2" washer with a 1.5" washer and setup at 10 meters. when the pellet strikes the washer, the entire target drops
and is restored upright with a pull on the attached cord. All misses go through the foam, leaving the target upright. My son and I could hit the 1.5" washer 95% of the time, so we replaced the washer with a 1.25" one.
for match final intensity, we replaced the 1.25: with a 3/4" washer. nearly any hit is a high nine or a sure ten... I calm down during those 3/4" washer sessions by dropping my aim onto Silhouette swingers and shooting them offhand for grins. Anyway I'm just beginning to participate in 10 meter AP at Prado, but my son and I love it. He's a far better shooter than me, I'm going to be 66 at the end of December and He's 33...How I love this stuff!
Tony Gallegos Corona, California
ps: You gotta replace the foam back often.. because of literally shooting rings around the washer...
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Steve Swartz
For Bryan:
If we execute 60 perfect shots, and they are all 9s . . . they will be very tightly clustered 9s.
How to fix?
Move the sights and shoot a 600/600 next time.
If we shoot a bunch of "accidental" tens what do we learn from this?
Nothing good, that's for sure!
The worst shot in the world is the accidental ten . . . much more difficult to overcome than a seen/called wide shot.
Steve Swartz
If we execute 60 perfect shots, and they are all 9s . . . they will be very tightly clustered 9s.
How to fix?
Move the sights and shoot a 600/600 next time.
If we shoot a bunch of "accidental" tens what do we learn from this?
Nothing good, that's for sure!
The worst shot in the world is the accidental ten . . . much more difficult to overcome than a seen/called wide shot.
Steve Swartz
I like this thread because it talks about the different perceptions of what we are doing.
I recently posted a poor score but was very happy with my performance. Is that reasonable thinking or am I looking at it the wrong way?
I think there was only seven shots outside the nine ring (all eights which narrowly missed the nine ring) but my score was 20 points down on average because I shot very few bulls.
What I liked was the fact that I was able to cluster 53 shots inside the 9 ring. There were only about 10 bulls whereas I would normally shoot 22-25 bulls.
I know the 10s will come eventually. Next time I shoot as well a lot of those 9.9 shots might be 10s.
I recently posted a poor score but was very happy with my performance. Is that reasonable thinking or am I looking at it the wrong way?
I think there was only seven shots outside the nine ring (all eights which narrowly missed the nine ring) but my score was 20 points down on average because I shot very few bulls.
What I liked was the fact that I was able to cluster 53 shots inside the 9 ring. There were only about 10 bulls whereas I would normally shoot 22-25 bulls.
I know the 10s will come eventually. Next time I shoot as well a lot of those 9.9 shots might be 10s.
Hi david, just shoot the centre out, dont waste time looking for something to cut with. Worked with rifle o/k, still working on pistol.
good training technique to work on process, not result.
once the centre is gone, you will start to relax as there is no result, like dry firing with bullets.
steve, of course move the sights after a couple shots dont go where you called them, assuming they go in the same area.
the accidental 10 is no accident, your subconcious did it, as it shot that wide shot, also no accident.
Dont be bemused by either event, learn from them. how you felt prior to the wide shot, avoid it! How you felt prior the unexplained 10, try to repead the same feelings, thoughts.
bryan
good training technique to work on process, not result.
once the centre is gone, you will start to relax as there is no result, like dry firing with bullets.
steve, of course move the sights after a couple shots dont go where you called them, assuming they go in the same area.
the accidental 10 is no accident, your subconcious did it, as it shot that wide shot, also no accident.
Dont be bemused by either event, learn from them. how you felt prior to the wide shot, avoid it! How you felt prior the unexplained 10, try to repead the same feelings, thoughts.
bryan
Colin, often 9.9's etc come from trying to shoot 10's, and not being comfortable with it.
shooting lots 9's keeps you more in your comfort zone, so you tend not to flick wide shots to get you back in the comfort zone.
hope that made some sense.
I think you need to stop trying to shoot 10's, but good technical shots. then the 10's will come all on there own.
bryan
shooting lots 9's keeps you more in your comfort zone, so you tend not to flick wide shots to get you back in the comfort zone.
hope that made some sense.
I think you need to stop trying to shoot 10's, but good technical shots. then the 10's will come all on there own.
bryan
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2650 Plus
Correction
Steve is correct when he says I benchmark perfornance to measure improvement or lack of same rather than to identify things to improve. There is never a time when I am/ was satisfied with performance and I constantly search for ways to improve ,nevertheless I am very cautious about change for change sake. That is why I devide training from practise and unless I have a specific training goal ,identified and carefully planned for integration into my shooting technique, I refrain from rushing into something that may turn out to be a horrible mistake. I practise with what I know and train when I learn sonething that should be helpful in improving my match performance. I find myself agreeing with Bryan and Ed Hall just a little more often than with Steve as Steve is prone to intelectual excursions that are somewhat difficult to follow at times. Even Bryan wanders off into some very subjective areas at times, But they all introduce well thought out concepts and ,if you disagree ,pressure you to defend uour position. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
Correction
Steve is correct when he says I benchmark perfornance to measure improvement or lack of same rather than to identify things to improve. There is never a time when I am/ was satisfied with performance and I constantly search for ways to improve ,nevertheless I am very cautious about change for change sake. That is why I devide training from practise and unless I have a specific training goal ,identified and carefully planned for integration into my shooting technique, I refrain from rushing into something that may turn out to be a horrible mistake. I practise with what I know and train when I learn sonething that should be helpful in improving my match performance. I find myself agreeing with Bryan and Ed Hall just a little more often than with Steve as Steve is prone to intelectual excursions that are somewhat difficult to follow at times. Even Bryan wanders off into some very subjective areas at times, But they all introduce well thought out concepts and ,if you disagree ,pressure you to defend uour position. Good Shooting Bill Horton
Bill, think if you set some small easily acheivable goals, and some more long term goals it will also help with confidence in moving forward.
If you cant see any increase, you loose confidence it what you are doing.
wanders off? subjective? I know where I'm going, just waiting for you to catch up!
realistically, it took me over 25 yrs of international shooting to get this subjective, and the cost has been high, so sorry for being a bit vague at times on an open forum.
benchmark your results against your shooting plan, and performance against your ability to stick to the plan.
takes time do develope a good plan.
bryan
If you cant see any increase, you loose confidence it what you are doing.
wanders off? subjective? I know where I'm going, just waiting for you to catch up!
realistically, it took me over 25 yrs of international shooting to get this subjective, and the cost has been high, so sorry for being a bit vague at times on an open forum.
benchmark your results against your shooting plan, and performance against your ability to stick to the plan.
takes time do develope a good plan.
bryan