Where have all the shooters gone?

TomN · Post by **TomN** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:58 am

I recently received my copy of the results from the NRA Open Smallbore Sectionals. (For those unfamiliar, these are smallbore matches conducted at local ranges nationwide in the USA. Scores are forwarded to NRA headquarters and the results compiled into a national match.) It seemed as if participant numbers were down again, so I went to some old result books I have to check. Here are the data:

For the years 1985, '90, '95, 2000, '05 and '07, the number of 3P competitors was 862, 615, 548, 404, 446, and 398. For the same years the number of 4P shooters was 765, 697, 469, 344, 377, 333. So current participation is less than half of what it was 22 years ago.

I'm sure there are many reasons for this (loss of ranges, the end of the baby boom, the end of the military draft, the political climate) but the result is the same.

Last shooter, please turn out the lights.

pdeal · Post by **pdeal** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:41 pm

The young ones are playing soccer, baseball, basketball, and football. Older ones are sitting on the couch watching these same sports on TV.

deleted1 · Post by **deleted1** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:36 pm

Exactly the same thing has happened at the Conventional Pistol Intersectionals locally as well---down from two weekends including Friday nights to just enough to fill the points for two days. The International Pistol sectionals also have dropped numbers logarithmically from two weekends to two days as well. The answer is quite simple there are very few young pistol shooters (below the age of 30) and mostly old foofs. This year we had a local Military Academy enter teams for FP, AP, SP, which dropped the average age to 56. At 76 I am one of the oldest to attend these matches locally.

guest123 · Post by **guest123** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:37 pm

I think Combat matches are taking a lot of the newer shooters. Shoot 60 shots in 2 hours or 35 in 3 minute stage. I like both, but enjoy the mental aspects of precision shooting more.

EdR · Post by **EdR** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:02 pm

It's most likely due to anti-gun people, few if any ranges in large cities that advertise, most people don't consider it a sport (pisses me off), and it costs alot. A big one is most people just have never heard of it

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:39 pm

We're sort of our own worst enemy. We think if were quiet they anti's will leave us alone. We sort of have a siege mentality. Amazingly enough every one I tell what I do are genuinely interest, I've taken a few out and they have really enjoyed it.

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:43 am

Where have all the shooters gone? Check out SASS (The Single Action Shooting Society). Cowboy Action Shooting, while hardly a sophisticated target shooting discipline, has had a phenominal growth in the last ten years.
When I lost most of my eyesight a few years ago, on the insistance of my best friend, I tried it. I found it more of a social experience, than a pure target shooting sport, and I was able to hit the large steel targets, even with my failing eyesight. When I joined three years ago, my membership no. was #59,279. I believe the membership is now up over 70,000, making it the fastest growing shooting sport in the world.

Now, with my restored eyesight, and return to International Pistol, I still remain active, because of the quality time I have with my son, who's also a member, and the nice folks I've met, and now consider friends.
Paul

corning · Post by **corning** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:43 pm

EdR wrote: and it costs alot. A big one is most people just have never heard of it

I think that these are the two biggest reasons there is a decline in the sport. In addition to those two reasons, I think time is also a big factor. For what little time I can give the sport, I shoot Long Range High Power. If and when I have more time on my hands, I will "expand" back to smallbore.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:48 pm

I really do't think costs has much to do with it. Have you tried any other sports like mountain biking or sking they both can run way more that shooting yet have way more participants.

I agree with the one about people having never heard of it as a sport.

EdR · Post by **EdR** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:00 pm

Some sports might cost more but they're somewhat well known sports. But many other sports that will appeal to youth or people looking for something to do are much cheaper and might only require a pair of shoes and shorts. But most people just don't know the opprotunities in target shooting

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:13 pm

EdR wrote:Some sports might cost more but they're somewhat well known sports. But many other sports that will appeal to youth or people looking for something to do are much cheaper and might only require a pair of shoes and shorts. But most people just don't know the opprotunities in target shooting

Have you seen what people pay for their kids running shoes, laptop computers, video games lately, dvd players, ect?

Not sure where you are located but up here in Canada Hockey is king and parents pay hundreds to thousand of dollars a season for their kids to play hockey an that is every year (as they get older it gets more expensive) for a season which is about 3-4 months. (the equipment doesn't hold it value as well as a good target pistol either).

I agree there are cheaper sports but there are lots of people playing sports that are way more expensive than shooting, so I don't really think that is a limiting factor.

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:55 am

I don't think cost is a major factor. Exposure is. There is a blackout of anything positive having to do with firearms in this country.
Several years ago, when the Coors Brewing Company was still sponsering schuetzen shooting, with their annual "Coors Schuetzenfest", it was my responsibility, as a member of the Western Carolina Schuetzen Society, to inform the TV media in the Charlotte, NC area, about the Coors regionals being held at the Ashville Rifle and Pistol Club. I gave them more than one months advance notice, sending them a schedule and description of the sport and it's history, along with promotional material from Coors. I suggested it would be a good "Human interest story", with shooters coming from all over the country, good visual effects due to the use of colorful targets (Red, with the Coors logo), the bullet holes in which could be easily picked up by the cameras, mostly antique single shot rifles, and the colorful decorations and prizes put up by Coors.

The only network that responded honestly, was NBC- WCNC TV, who informed me, off the record, that it was "against their policy to show firearms in a positive light." CBS- WBTV, who every year, features as "Human Interest", an annual "Hollering Contest" from Spivey Corners, NC, said they would "Look into it", but didn't, and ABC- WSOC TV didn't even bother to respond.
I guess watching a bunch of yahoos making fools of themselves hollering as they did from hill to hill, before the days of telephones, is more interesting than 200yd. offhand shooting with lead bullets and single shot rifles.

It's impossible to promote interest in a sport mostly unknown to the public.

Paul

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:12 am

Paul,
Those of us who have been involved in the sport for a while have similar stories. Here's a very recent one - my daughter told me last month that the camp my grandson is going to this summer dropped its rifle program. They had a good program - he learned to shoot a BB rifle there last two summers and was ready to start with a 22 this summer. Apparently there was a lot of flak from certain parents and the camp director decided it was too much hassle. Surprising to hear about anti gun stuff in a state like Colorado, but I guess times are changing. He comes East to visit 2-3x/yr, and he shoots my small bore and air rifle, but it is hard to develop interest in a sport with minimal exposure and with so many other sports attracting his attention.

I also agree with your comments on action shooting - SASS, IPSC, IDPA, etc. That's where the growth is in this country. I've done my share of it and, apart from the technical differences, the action shooting sports are 90% social interaction (talking), 10% shooting; while bullseye type shooting is 90% shooting, 10% social.

Fred

funtoz · Post by **funtoz** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:20 pm

Fred Mannis wrote:Paul,
Those of us who have been involved in the sport for a while have similar stories. Here's a very recent one - my daughter told me last month that the camp my grandson is going to this summer dropped its rifle program. They had a good program - he learned to shoot a BB rifle there last two summers and was ready to start with a 22 this summer. Apparently there was a lot of flak from certain parents and the camp director decided it was too much hassle. Surprising to hear about anti gun stuff in a state like Colorado, but I guess times are changing. He comes East to visit 2-3x/yr, and he shoots my small bore and air rifle, but it is hard to develop interest in a sport with minimal exposure and with so many other sports attracting his attention.

I also agree with your comments on action shooting - SASS, IPSC, IDPA, etc. That's where the growth is in this country. I've done my share of it and, apart from the technical differences, the action shooting sports are 90% social interaction (talking), 10% shooting; while bullseye type shooting is 90% shooting, 10% social.

Fred

So how much grief did you and the other parents that liked the shooting program give the director? There are more of us than them, but like Richard said, we mostly suffer our losses in silence. Years ago when I was an engineer in a T&M manufacturer carving silicon, I hung my best (at the time) free pistol target in my cubicle. It took a lot of effort not to apologize to commenters at first. Some commented that they didn't believe in guns but no one was belligerent. I did find out that a lot of other engineers and managers were shooters. It turned out that my bosses boss was into action pistol and was impressed that I had the discipline to shoot something like free pistol. Another who just went to the range occasionally took up conventional pistol with us. I believe he is still running matches at a nearby range.

I put up an air pistol target at my current place of employment as soon as I got my desk. Turns out a third of the staff have concealed pistol licenses and one is an avid hunter.

A while back the neighboring county wanted to turn our range into a sewage treatment plant. At a well attended public hearing our neighbors made it plain they would rather have a shooting range. The hearings people though they'd all be just tickled to get those nasty gun nuts out of the now suburban area. The club puts a lot of effort into being a good neighbor, and it has paid off.

If we don't say something, they will take it away. Sure, there are anti-gun fanatics. I have run into them. They usually embarrass themselves by being obnoxiously rude in from of onlookers.

Larry

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:07 pm

Hi

I work at Boeing and a large number of the engineers shoot as a hobby. I put up my better targets, but I'm the only one around here shooting competitively. Well, there a few trap shooters, but it's much more difficult to hang up a good score....

Mike
Wichita KS

Hemmers · Post by **Hemmers** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:37 pm

funtoz wrote:Sure, there are anti-gun fanatics. I have run into them. They usually embarrass themselves by being obnoxiously rude in from of onlookers.
Larry

Quite. We had a thing in the UK called "National Shooting Week" a couple of months ago. Basically the governing bodies encouraged clubs to open their doors to the public. Anyway, an MP from the Department of Culture, Media and Sport called for young people to take up target shooting including pistol. This was discussed on a radio program (recording here:http://www.glossover.co.uk/rts/download ... 7-Penn.wma). Gill Marshall-Andrews of the Gun Control Network, who are a group of about 6 anti-gun fanatics fielded the anti-gun position, and as you can hear, it's mostly hissing and spitting and saying that anyone who disagrees with her are very stupid people (her words!).

I enjoyed her saying "in america 30,000 people die by the gun..."
in what? a minute, a year, a millenia!?

There is also a nasty report here of an incident where a firearms expert was invited to speak to a meeting of "Mothers against Illegal Guns". Apparently someone had the sense to separate legal and illegal shooting in their mind. Anyway, Gill MA rocked up and basically started a riot. You can read it for yourself here: http://www.sportsmansassociation.org.uk ... etwork.pdf
Basically, she knew he would win over the mothers, who would realise that legal shooting poses no risk to public safety, and so she had to hijack him before he could get the good word out.

The fanatics are not nice people, and us shooters would do well to start standing up for ourselves in the UK. We were very happy to see a scottish shooter called Neil Stirton get sponsored by a chain of shopping centres. They're sponsoring a cross-section of UK sportspeople, and the shooting community were delighted to see shooting being dealt with as "just another sport" the same as rowing, martial arts or swimming.
http://www.themall.co.uk/family-and-community.aspx
Pictures of him and his rifle are now on 8ft screens in centres around the UK!

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:05 pm

Hemmers, I just returned from a three week vacation in the UK. I was disturbed by the news on Sky TV, having to do with the inability of Brits to defend themselves with regard to burgleries, without subjecting themselves to criminal prosecution. They interviewed a fellow who had been burglarized while asleep upstairs. Fortunately the burglar limited his roaming to the ground floor. When the fellow showed the reporter the tennis racquet he now kept by the bed, he was asked about the chance of being prosecuted, should he injure an intruder. He answered he was willing to take the chance. Other people interviewed, brandished the baseball (cricket ?) bats they kept by their beds. All acknowledged they were opening themselves up to criminal charges if they used force deemed unreasonable by the Crown.

The reason I bring this up, is because the news spot was actually about legislation being introduced in parliament, to allow victims to defend themselves without fear of being charged with a crime. Has anything been enacted? It seems at this point, criminals have more rights than victims in the UK , and based upon the number of CCTV cameras and burglar alarms visible on most buildings, you seem to be under a "Siege mentality" when it comes to burglaries. This, unfortunately, is also becoming the case in some parts of the US.
Paul

danholmes · Post by **danholmes** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:06 pm

Getting back to the Little League thing. I honestly believe that the increased organization and mobilization of youth sports like baseball and football, have directly affected the number of participants in Junior shooting programs.

Little League and organizations like POP Warner football have become incredibly organized and efficient at recruiting players. The shooting sports world could definitely learn a thing or two from these organizations.

-Dan Holmes
http//pronematch.com

Hemmers · Post by **Hemmers** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:40 pm

pgfaini wrote:The reason I bring this up, is because the news spot was actually about legislation being introduced in parliament, to allow victims to defend themselves without fear of being charged with a crime. Has anything been enacted? It seems at this point, criminals have more rights than victims in the UK...

I don't know if anything's been discussed recently. I've missed it if it has, but then I've been all over the place this last month for various reasons, often without access to TV or internet, so I'm not exactly up to date on the latest wranglings in parliament...

Now, this is a bit of a long post, but this is pretty much UK law regarding self-defence as I understand it...

There was a move some months ago to better define the wording of the relevant laws. I think at the moment you can defend yourself as long as you don't use "excessive or gratuitous force" or somesuchlike. Not sure of the exact wording. Basically people wanted to make it less ambiguous as to what "excessive or gratuitous force" actually constituted, but they decided it was fine and left it as it was.

Basically, I think if you knock someone out - whether with cricket bat, hockey stick or frying pan, that's ok, as long as you don't carry on beating them once they're unconscious (that gets into assault and manslughter/murder territory if they die). Obviously if they're armed you get a bit more room to play with.

With respect to firearms, shot holes definitely need to be in the front, not the back, or they could have been running away, rather than posing a threat. I wouldn't risk it personally. There was a farmer got jailed a few years back for killing a burglar with a shotgun. If you just injured, you probably wouldn't get prosecuted, but you'd lose your licence for sure, and for a serious shooter, thats your passion out the window. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if shooting was taken away from me. I wouldn't risk losing my rifle, that's for sure.

The mentality at the moment very much seems to be to only defend if you are in actual danger, and there has been an increasing number of offenders have been found guilty of crimes, but have themselves sued for injuries sustained from the property owner - somehow the courts have been convinced to see them as the victim...disgusting. pgfaini pointed out that criminals seem to have more rights than the victims. Well, the criminals seem to be painting themselves as the victims...
Unfortunately due to prison overcrowding, offenders are getting stupid short sentences and let out early to boot, so there's (a) no incentive not to reoffend (b) worrying possibility of reprisals from them and their mates if you've royally pissed them off. It's not till you're dead that the courts will take notice and give them a decent sentence.

If they're just after your property, they recommend you hide/comply with burglars, then claim off the insurance. This I assume, is to stop people getting injured by resisting burglars. In fairness, burglars are increasingly carrying weapons and are increasingly prepared to use violence. The number of deaths due to people coming home and disturbing burglars who then lash out in order to escape has increased over the past few years.

As far as I'm concerned, once someone breaks into my house/commits a violent crime towards me, they lose all rights to surviving past the next 5 minutes if I can lay my hands on a suitable weapon (I'm not a big bloke or an especially strong bloke so I need something to hand, or I'll have to run and hide/get help rather than stand and fight). Unfortunately, killing an intruder will probably get me a jail term and I'll never shoot again as a result, so swift blow to the head with a hockey stick it is, then truss 'em up with cable ties or whatever comes to hand till the plod arrive...

You also have to be careful tying people up/using powers of citizen's arrest. There were two guys grabbed a kid who was graffiting public property and hauled him off to the police station, and subsequently spent the next 6 months in court fighting off abduction charges regarding the 10minutes he was being manhandled against his will down the street to the station.
The kid just got an ASBO, to add to a couple he already had. (For USA readers, ASBOs - Anti Social Behaviour Orders - basically say you can't do x or y - basically a court order saying you have to follow to law. Well, if you're prepared to break the law, a bit of paper from a court ain't going to change much is it? Utterly useless. These kids are accumulating ASBOs like trophies. Complete waste of court time and public money...)

Mako · Post by **Mako** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:13 am

Back On Topic:

I went racing, my other Love. Specifically SCCA Solo racing. First with my very modified Subaru WRX and now, co-driving a Lotus Elise. Participated in my first Nationals last month in Topeka, Kansas ... co-driving an ASP (modified) Z-06 Corvette. I did better at the USA Shooting Nationals! You think shooting is expensive. Try $1,000 sets of racing tires that are only good for 30 great laps, 30 good laps and then become practice tires for another 40 laps, meaning you have to have yet another set of wheels for the next set of race tires. Money's used up now, so I might take out the air and free pistols again. Maybe I'll see you all again in Ft. Benning ... if that is where Nationals are still held?

TargetTalk

Where have all the shooters gone?

Where have all the shooters gone?

Little League and Such