The progress you have seen (I assume it is more or less constant and didn't happen only once so that the values you gave are kind of averages) may come from many things, here I can mention:
- the form/size of the grip that might change the postion of your finger on the trigger making you pull more in line with the barrel with the Walter. Check/compare your finger position and adjust the trigger of your Morini to make it similar to the Walter.
- the alignment of the barrel with respect to the grip that might give you a more natural alignement with the Walter. Check the natural alignment with the Morini (you close your eyes while raising/aligning the pistol, it should be aligned).
- the trigger adjustment, first stage/second stage...
- the weight of the pistol. You say that the Walter is heavier this might improve stability.
- the adjustment of the sight, depth and width of the rear sight. Front sight width.
These are just some of the possibilities. Analysing the differences between the two pistols may teach you interrsting things.
Another one: I have never shoot the 300 XT myself, but Walter says that it has a recoil compensation that I do not think the Morini has, this might be a cause also. This idea because you mention jerk (that should not happen, you pistol should remain stable and aligned when/after firing). The recoil compensation of the 300 XT, as the one of the Steyr LP10 (this one is very efficient), is supposed to reduce the risk of jerk.
Finally, some comment about the claim of Guest: yes, a good physical condition help. But you do not need to be very strong land look ike Rambo or Schwarzy to shoot well. I know a lot of old people, above 70, so not physically very strong anymore, that shoot very well.
need help here..
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@650 Plus
Asside to Steve
As far as I have been able to discerne ,we do not have a GOD assigned to this forum.as a super regulator. When someone says something in whitch you violently dissagree , why not respond with logic and reasoned argument. You are more than well qualified to clarify miss statements and erronious infotmation. Flaming some poster that trying to provide helpful input is beneath you.[ Even though it may very clever] Good shooting Bill Horton
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Steve Swartz
Anonymous Guest:
Please accept my sincerest apologies. I went back and re-read our portion of the exchange and I must say I did over-react. I am sorry for my uncivil behavior and while I cannot take my words back (as much as I would wish to), at least know that for what it's worth I do deeply regret the portions of my post that were attacked you personally.
Steve Swartz
Please accept my sincerest apologies. I went back and re-read our portion of the exchange and I must say I did over-react. I am sorry for my uncivil behavior and while I cannot take my words back (as much as I would wish to), at least know that for what it's worth I do deeply regret the portions of my post that were attacked you personally.
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
Templar:
Back to your initial question- and the more important issue of where to go from here and what to expect.
- Concentrate on front sight focus
- Concentrate on maintaining perfect alignment
- Concentrate on absolutely smooth, rapid, conssitent trigger release that does not in any way disturb the front sight/rear sight alignment
You can achieve all of those training objectives by dry fire/live fire against a blank target card.
Putting a bullseye downrange will greatly interfere with your progression in achieving those objectives- it is an unecessary distraction from your most important tasks and will delay your progress considerably!
And, Oh By The Way, your ability to "hold" will improve as a natural side effect of holding hte gun out there with perfect alignment.
The reverse is not true- working on "hold" will not necessarily improve (the much more critical) alignment.
And in any case, it is difficult to perfect your trigger (also kind of important!) while worrying about how far off your wobble excursions are taking you.
Anyhow
Good luck, and don't expect much in the way of progress beyond the 540s until you accept the importance of alignment and trigger control . . . my recommendation is to not worry about "hold" (it will take of itself actually) until that becomes the main factor limiting your improvement.
Once again I point out that you can shoot a 570 with an 8 ring wobble . . .
Steve Swartz
Back to your initial question- and the more important issue of where to go from here and what to expect.
- Concentrate on front sight focus
- Concentrate on maintaining perfect alignment
- Concentrate on absolutely smooth, rapid, conssitent trigger release that does not in any way disturb the front sight/rear sight alignment
You can achieve all of those training objectives by dry fire/live fire against a blank target card.
Putting a bullseye downrange will greatly interfere with your progression in achieving those objectives- it is an unecessary distraction from your most important tasks and will delay your progress considerably!
And, Oh By The Way, your ability to "hold" will improve as a natural side effect of holding hte gun out there with perfect alignment.
The reverse is not true- working on "hold" will not necessarily improve (the much more critical) alignment.
And in any case, it is difficult to perfect your trigger (also kind of important!) while worrying about how far off your wobble excursions are taking you.
Anyhow
Good luck, and don't expect much in the way of progress beyond the 540s until you accept the importance of alignment and trigger control . . . my recommendation is to not worry about "hold" (it will take of itself actually) until that becomes the main factor limiting your improvement.
Once again I point out that you can shoot a 570 with an 8 ring wobble . . .
Steve Swartz
Re: Asside to Steve
Last edited by funtoz on Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Ariani
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:25 pm
Steve. I see you have introduced the word 'rapid' in relation to the trigger release - something I haven't seen you do before in the multitude of posts you have made on this subject.- Concentrate on front sight focus
- Concentrate on maintaining perfect alignment
- Concentrate on absolutely smooth, rapid, conssitent trigger release that does not in any way disturb the front sight/rear sight alignment
I remember a while back posting a query about 'just how long' is the trigger release process. There was little or no response and it's my biggest hold back on my own trigger process. I know there can be no absolute time given as we are all different in our shot proceedure. Maybe I analyse too much, but what confuses me is seeing some shooters hold for a short time (6 - 8 seconds) and score a 10, whilst others hold for 20+ seconds and score a 10. If only I could understand what the trigger pressure is doing during those two examples.
You have oviously introduced the word 'rapid' for a reason (or left it out before for a reason). My shot proceedure is always between 7 and 12 seconds. I take up the first stage when entering the aiming area and then I 'believe' I start a smooth consistent trigger release. From my Rika files this is over an approximate 3 second period. I guess this does not fall into the category of 'rapid'? Would you suggest I try and speed this last part of the proceedure up? Your comments (as well as others of course) would be greatly appreciated.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Interesting. My own experience is that at my current stage of development I seem to get more benefit out of dry and live firing at a bull than at a blank target. This exercise helps me to deal with ignoring the bull while concentrating on sight alignment. Of course I include dry/live firing at a blank target in my training, but to a lesser degree.funtoz wrote:In a comprehensive plan, there should be a certain amount of visual feedback introduced early in training. Adding a target to some of the exercises, even if a rest is needed to stabilize the pistol is of value. Studies done of motor training that introduced visual feedback late in the training found that progress was slowed while the subject adjusted to the feedback. Better progress was observed with feedback introduced early or at the beginning.
Fred
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Steve Swartz
Larry, Fred:
Good points actually; no, great points. So allow me to backpedal slightly!
Agree in principle- my own training plan uses [well, it used to- perhaps explaining my recent unpleasant slump] a "pyramid" approach with the majority of training time dedicated to the fundamentals at the base of the pyramid (alignment, trigger) through the integration of the fundamentals (alignment plus trigger, with blank live fire), leading to teh smallest amount of time (but perhaps greatest intensity of focus) at drills involving the distraction bull.
So my advice to train exclusively on alignment, and alignment with trigger, was perhaps exaggerated HOWEVER I think very appropriate for someone at the level of Templar.
Newbies need to focus exclusively on what really matters early on- if for no other reason than they will delay their progress considerably with all the other distractions (stance, grip, hold, breathing, etc.) that can (and should) be dealt with only as they affect alignment and trigger.
Maybe I should have recommended one session per week dry firing against a distraction bull- perhaps less than 5% of total trigger manipulations for the week wouldn't hurt too badly. For a beginner.
So we agree in principle, just not magnitude!
For a more experienced shooter, that proportion would change (e.g., the pyramid would have less of slope in that the proportion of dry/live fire blank vs. dry/live fire distraction bull), and be more balanced.
However
That would depend on the degree to which bad habits (of trying to "aim" the gun and "time" the shot) have taken over. Some exsperienced shooters ("I have been stuck around 550 for the last two years") need to pretty much totally reprogram their shot plans before they can move ahead. In those circumstances, they should radically reformat their training plans to go back to square one- USMC style- and only fire (when at all) for "group size" on blank targets until they can wrap their brains around the primacy of alignment. This takes a great amount of dry fire and live fire against a blank target . . . and an almost obsessive aversion to looking at a distraction target!
Steve Swartz
Good points actually; no, great points. So allow me to backpedal slightly!
Agree in principle- my own training plan uses [well, it used to- perhaps explaining my recent unpleasant slump] a "pyramid" approach with the majority of training time dedicated to the fundamentals at the base of the pyramid (alignment, trigger) through the integration of the fundamentals (alignment plus trigger, with blank live fire), leading to teh smallest amount of time (but perhaps greatest intensity of focus) at drills involving the distraction bull.
So my advice to train exclusively on alignment, and alignment with trigger, was perhaps exaggerated HOWEVER I think very appropriate for someone at the level of Templar.
Newbies need to focus exclusively on what really matters early on- if for no other reason than they will delay their progress considerably with all the other distractions (stance, grip, hold, breathing, etc.) that can (and should) be dealt with only as they affect alignment and trigger.
Maybe I should have recommended one session per week dry firing against a distraction bull- perhaps less than 5% of total trigger manipulations for the week wouldn't hurt too badly. For a beginner.
So we agree in principle, just not magnitude!
For a more experienced shooter, that proportion would change (e.g., the pyramid would have less of slope in that the proportion of dry/live fire blank vs. dry/live fire distraction bull), and be more balanced.
However
That would depend on the degree to which bad habits (of trying to "aim" the gun and "time" the shot) have taken over. Some exsperienced shooters ("I have been stuck around 550 for the last two years") need to pretty much totally reprogram their shot plans before they can move ahead. In those circumstances, they should radically reformat their training plans to go back to square one- USMC style- and only fire (when at all) for "group size" on blank targets until they can wrap their brains around the primacy of alignment. This takes a great amount of dry fire and live fire against a blank target . . . and an almost obsessive aversion to looking at a distraction target!
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
John:
Good catch!
- The "speed" is nowhere near as important as "CONSISTENCY"
- I have most assuredly NOT backed away from my "lock time doesn't matter position"
- The addition of "rapid" comes from a couple of different issues and considerations
-- Re-reading of some great words from great shooters indicates that many put a significant correlation between SPEED and CONSISTENCY; even Col Cooper (of ppc/ipsc note) mentions that good trigger control actual contributes to fast shooting, and vice versa
-- All other things being equal, as you increase the speed of the trigger manipulation the AMOUNT of VARIANCE possible is reduced, even if hte coefficient of variation remains the same. In other words, a 10% deviation in trigger press over a 5 second process is much larger in real terms than a 5% deviation over .5 seconds . . .
Personally, I think the first point is more important. Ed Hall I believe has also made this point (which I have wisely not attempted to contradict!). IIRC, Ed has also noted that there is an "optimum" speed (Ed, please chime in here!) where the operation of the trigger is smoothest.
This "Goldilocksian" speed is actually a little faster than many tyros will be comfortable with, and it comes from confidence. As we become more intimately familiar with our own trigger quality, we actually get both faster and more consistent at teh same time.
This is not to say we should work on speed by itself necessarily- but only to the degree that we are improving SMOOTHNESS and CONSISTENCY and, better yet, CONFIDENCE.
As my trigger speed has increased, and gotten smoother, the number of times I experience "Chicken Finger has dropped to, well, never.
But please note the objective of the outcome is to improve trigger smoothness and consistency, and not speed for speed's sake. It's just that quite a few top shooters seem to mention that as speed increases (to a point), smoothness and consistency can also increase.
Great point though- and I can't remember exactly when the "rapid" thing came up- but it was probably in the middle of one of Ed's (and the other "usual suspects") long dispositions on trigger control . . .
Steve Swartz
Good catch!
- The "speed" is nowhere near as important as "CONSISTENCY"
- I have most assuredly NOT backed away from my "lock time doesn't matter position"
- The addition of "rapid" comes from a couple of different issues and considerations
-- Re-reading of some great words from great shooters indicates that many put a significant correlation between SPEED and CONSISTENCY; even Col Cooper (of ppc/ipsc note) mentions that good trigger control actual contributes to fast shooting, and vice versa
-- All other things being equal, as you increase the speed of the trigger manipulation the AMOUNT of VARIANCE possible is reduced, even if hte coefficient of variation remains the same. In other words, a 10% deviation in trigger press over a 5 second process is much larger in real terms than a 5% deviation over .5 seconds . . .
Personally, I think the first point is more important. Ed Hall I believe has also made this point (which I have wisely not attempted to contradict!). IIRC, Ed has also noted that there is an "optimum" speed (Ed, please chime in here!) where the operation of the trigger is smoothest.
This "Goldilocksian" speed is actually a little faster than many tyros will be comfortable with, and it comes from confidence. As we become more intimately familiar with our own trigger quality, we actually get both faster and more consistent at teh same time.
This is not to say we should work on speed by itself necessarily- but only to the degree that we are improving SMOOTHNESS and CONSISTENCY and, better yet, CONFIDENCE.
As my trigger speed has increased, and gotten smoother, the number of times I experience "Chicken Finger has dropped to, well, never.
But please note the objective of the outcome is to improve trigger smoothness and consistency, and not speed for speed's sake. It's just that quite a few top shooters seem to mention that as speed increases (to a point), smoothness and consistency can also increase.
Great point though- and I can't remember exactly when the "rapid" thing came up- but it was probably in the middle of one of Ed's (and the other "usual suspects") long dispositions on trigger control . . .
Steve Swartz
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John Ariani
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:25 pm
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Ed Hall
To Address the Trigger Speed Issue
My firm belief is that your subconscious will tell you what is the best manipulation of the trigger for your given discipline. But, it will need to know what you're looking for, and you will have to ask it what is best. In order to ask it, you must remove all interference. Once you have learned what to look for, you will need to search for the same operation while experiencing different distractions. The operation you will discover will be relatively quick once all the interruptions have been eliminated and the true action is brought forth. I have written some rather long versions of how to work on your trigger operation in the past. To save on some space and time, here are a couple of those past posts:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=11451#49842
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=12895#57594
There are more, but I can't locate them now as I'm pressed for time. Perhaps later...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=11451#49842
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=12895#57594
There are more, but I can't locate them now as I'm pressed for time. Perhaps later...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Steve Swartz
Thanks Ed I knew you were the "trigger man!"
Also- for everyone- if you have "Pistol Shooter's Treasury" check out Bill Blankenship's discussion on pages 17-19 about "fast trigger" and the subconscious release principles.
And if you don't have the Pistol Shooter's Treasury, well, why the heck not?!? (published by and available from Gil Hebard's Guns. Knoxville, Illinois)
Steve
[Note to Bill Horton: check out Bill's discussion of "Holding the Gun Still" in the very next section after trigger. I think that's what you have been trying to impart recently . . . ? While it would seem that I disagree strongly with what you have been saying, I agree wholeheartedly with what Bill Blankenship says. If you believe that you and Bill B. are saying the same thing, well, therein lies the rub so to speak!]
Also- for everyone- if you have "Pistol Shooter's Treasury" check out Bill Blankenship's discussion on pages 17-19 about "fast trigger" and the subconscious release principles.
And if you don't have the Pistol Shooter's Treasury, well, why the heck not?!? (published by and available from Gil Hebard's Guns. Knoxville, Illinois)
Steve
[Note to Bill Horton: check out Bill's discussion of "Holding the Gun Still" in the very next section after trigger. I think that's what you have been trying to impart recently . . . ? While it would seem that I disagree strongly with what you have been saying, I agree wholeheartedly with what Bill Blankenship says. If you believe that you and Bill B. are saying the same thing, well, therein lies the rub so to speak!]
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Ed Hall
Last night I posted a couple of earlier links, but the one I was really looking for escaped me. I have since located it and have it shown below. I would like to highlight the original post by Tomack, my response and the two replies by Tomack. The link below starts with Tomack's first entry:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... t=20#68432
Additional note: My interpretation of "holding the gun still" means to supress the impulse to fix the picture. The gun is never static, but the movements must be the natural motions free from conscious fixes. What I wrote still may seem ambiguous, but basically, let the sights hover over the aiming area without making conscious corrections.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... t=20#68432
Additional note: My interpretation of "holding the gun still" means to supress the impulse to fix the picture. The gun is never static, but the movements must be the natural motions free from conscious fixes. What I wrote still may seem ambiguous, but basically, let the sights hover over the aiming area without making conscious corrections.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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2650 Plus
Subject:
Steve, the more I study your posts the more I find to agree with and aplaud. Still not smart enough to figure out how you're. accomplishing the subcounsious trigger application without any mental signal to the finger to begin movement. I spent almost a year working on causing the finger to move any time my mind thought/ visuallized alligned sights .I never quite achieved the desired results in a consistant enough way to be reliable in competition. I wonder if I gave up too soon. But that s why I started the finger moving just before I settled into my aiming area. I had become convinced early on that you cant control your performance until you can control your mind. Jumping back and forth from sights to trigger and back to sight at random simply doesn't work for me. Your comments to the orriginal poster about what to do and how to train so as to develope the skill was right on.I wish I could have said that. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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mercxs
Hi
I read about Ragnar Skanåker and the first thing he checked up when taking out the gun again recently was his level of armstrength. And then he started working it up again. In his top days, he managed to hold 3kg on a straight arm in 3min 30 sec. I think 3kg is aproxometly 6.5 Ibs. Perhaps mr Templar should work on armstrenght and areobic capacity as well, no chain is stronger then it´s weakest link.
I read about Ragnar Skanåker and the first thing he checked up when taking out the gun again recently was his level of armstrength. And then he started working it up again. In his top days, he managed to hold 3kg on a straight arm in 3min 30 sec. I think 3kg is aproxometly 6.5 Ibs. Perhaps mr Templar should work on armstrenght and areobic capacity as well, no chain is stronger then it´s weakest link.