Training vs practice

[bryan]

10 seconds is a long time, like to take my time for the first shot, then let the rest follow. I dont shoot to it often, never train, so results not very good. have a lot to learn. rather shoot rapid.
concentrating on AP for now.

bryan

[funtoz]

[bryan]

Sorry larry, I am learning about pistol, but some things are the same.
I also see where some are coming from as I have been there already.
I am finding pistol very hard. you can lean on the rifle a bit.
and yes, I have always been a pain.
I do listen, have learned a lot, lots more to learn, and try to help if I think I have a different idea with something to offer.
I dont ask to many questions.

I have had little trouble with the timed events, its the slow fire events I struggle with by comparison. guess we are all different.
I have set goals I would like to meet, maybe I have bitten off to much.

but as they say, if you bite off to much, start chewing harder.

bryan

[funtoz]

[Fred Mannis]

you are probably right re std.
should I not shoot 5 individual shots?

IMHO it is still 5 individual shots (although I know others will disagree) but it is not just 5 slow-fire shots fired quickly.

You have the added complications of recoil control, sight re-alignment, trigger timing, general time constraints etc.

The 20 sec series is on the edge of 5 slow-fire shots fired quickly, but for the 10 sec series you really do need to master building pressure on the trigger while re-aligning the sights.

[2650 Plus]

I try to prepare for the 10 second string by firing the 20 in as close to the 10 second rythm as I can manage without droping points. Most of the difference occurs om the first shot. On the 20 second string I am aome what more careful in letting the pistol settle with more attention directed toward perfecting sight allignment. The 10 second string requires an earlier break with a less criticle attitude about sight allingment. The actual firing rythm is very simular for both, as are the results. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[RobStubbs]

If you watch good shooters shooting the 10 and 20 second strings you will see the timings and rhythm are very different. I'm still learning the event but good shooters take 18 or more seconds in the 20's, those less good take much less (like 12 secs). For me the big skill is to learn how long 20 secs really is and ditto 10 seconds.

Rob.

[Fred Mannis]

Bill and Rob are describing somewhat different events. The 10 sec string in NRA Bullseye starts with the gun up on target and the first shot breaks within 0.5 sec. In ISSF Standard Pistol the string starts with the gun down and the first shot breaks in 1-1.5 sec. This gives it a distinctly different flavor. I shoot NRA rapid fire much as Bill describes and while far from his ability, usually shoot 95%

[2650 Plus]

Fred , I . really was talking about SP. Thats how I shoot it. The trigger is moving before the pistol stops on the target, My goal is to get the pistol reasonably still and the sighte alligned good enough to shoot a 10, Start the finger moving during recovery wiith my primary effort on perfecting sight allignment . I try to never mess with the trigger manipulation, and just let it keep on moving. I arrived at this technique as a result of rushing the last shot in a 20 second string . and hanging a nine out there for every one to see. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[RobStubbs]

Bill and Rob are describing somewhat different events. The 10 sec string in NRA Bullseye starts with the gun up on target and the first shot breaks within 0.5 sec. In ISSF Standard Pistol the string starts with the gun down and the first shot breaks in 1-1.5 sec. This gives it a distinctly different flavor. I shoot NRA rapid fire much as Bill describes and while far from his ability, usually shoot 95%

Bill,
I was talking ISSF standard pistol but the shot most certainly doesn't break in 1 - 1.5 seconds - that's about right for the 4sec string in olympic rapid fire ! In standard pistol I'd be looking at between 3 and 4 sec's for the first shot in the 10s string, and 5 or 6 secs in the 20s string. I've seen good shooters take much longer though on the 1st shot in both.

Rob.

[2650 Plus]

Fred , your discription of NRA timed and rapid fire is spot on and thats how most top shooters approach the five shot string in that disciplin. You have obviously done your share of it. Ron, I agree with the times to first shot and my shot plan is very close to those times. I do have to stay close to the plan to avoid panic as I get close to running out of time. To me that is a major concentration breaker. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Please check the exchange with Russ in the usas match comments. Will you consider that when you are shooting several points above the world record, training may no longer be appropraite, and it may be a good time to prectise. Any one that can out shoot gunny Zins deservers all of our attention any time he wants to talk about how he does his thing. I notice he is still having some trouble with his second language. He may also be having some problems with some of our concepts of good sportsmanship. I hope we can all quit trying to smoke him and cut him some slack until he gets us figured out. I have my problems too. I was in a post exchange when a russian major walked up beside me . I notices my trigger finger tightening up as I observed him trying to buy a watch.And that was the result of training also. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[funtoz]

[2650 Plus]

Larry , you did a better job of expressing my views than I did. As I was trying to explain I am also not qualified to advise Russ. He is just to damn good to be listening to the likes of me. About this forum, it serves a truely vital purpose for our shooting community.So, I am willing to tolerate a few clowns posting amoung the jewels of information that fill the forum.By the way, I hold a very loose opinion about listening to non shooters giving me advise about how to shoot. You are not one of those. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz]

So Bill- you believe then that most shooters who shoot really well are also great coaches, and if a guy has never shot really well then he isn't worth listening to?

That seems to be what you are saying- I just want some clarity here.

Steve Swartz

(And from a personal standpoint, what about a guy who has shot well in the past and for whatever reason has been in a year-long slump?)

=8^p

[Richard H]

Very few of the top coaches in any sport were top athletes in thier sport, coaching and participating require different skills. There are many great shooters that coldn't coach any one because they can't express themselves and pass the knowledge along. Then there are great coaches that probably couldn't break 500. It really is more the exception that can do both well than the rule.

[2650 Plus]

Steve, You Have found what I believe to be the secret of my sucess. I do not liisten to just everone. The vast majority of poor shooters are that because they dont understand what goes into firing a really good shot. Therefore I am always concerned that tyeir faulty ideas may contaminate my performance. Fortunately I have been able to find shooters at my own or higher level that can express quite elequintly the concepts that allowed them to excell. These are the people I search out for guidance. If I can out shoot him I have already progressed beyond his understanding of the issues. I doubt that I am wrong on this concept. If I am ,Prove it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

you guys are funny.
dont sell yourselves so short.
there are coaches, and there are coaches!
the better you start to compete, the easier it is to sort through the crap, and beleive me, the coaches that can talk the talk, but cant walk the walk, were never that good themselves!
and they are very good to a point, there may be a time that you realise your results have exeeded there ability to train you. they dont have the answer any more, they are trying to learn from you.

In the old russia, when their world champions got passed over, they used to get the option to then go to uni and do a coaching degree, then work their way up the coaching ladder, probably china as well. so you get some very elite coaches. they say it is quicker to teach a would champion shooter about sports phsycology, than the other way round. but as many are learning, not all coaches are equal.

bryan

[2650 Plus]

Steve please take a peek at Bryans connents about inadequate coaches. It is not coaches that I have the problem, just those ill informed coaches who's advice is too often just plain wrong. Even the time spent listening to their drivel is tine I would rather spend constructively with a more skilled coach or a shooting peer. I don't even care what discipline the other person is committed to practise. I suggested in a previous post that I suspect that there is considerable ceoss over in the shooting skills.. How about this; gun still relative to the target ,fire the shot without disturbing stillness, point the gun where the shot and target will be at the same place. You can break one hundred straight in skeet or trap doing this. Hold the gun still at the natural point of aim , apply good trigger control, and perfect sight allignment . follow through and you can clean a rifle target. It really takes a nit picker to find much difference in how our game is played when you disregard the type of fire arm being used Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz]

Bill:

You refer again to "Holding the Gun Still." I still don't understand what you mean by this.

HTGS = the gun doesn't move?
HTGS = the sights are aligned?
HTGS = ????

Also- you have referred in the past to the trigger driving the sights. How does that fit with holding the gun still? If the gun is still, how does the trigger fit in?

Steve Swartz

As to coaching and competing, your philosophy probably works for most people. For me, personally, I have heard too much good advice from people who couldn't out shoot me, and too much crap from people who could, to follow your "only listen to those who can outshoot me" rule of thumb.

I have actually met top competitors who (I suspect) have given bad advice simply because they don't want company on the podium . . . one of my earliest "coaches" actually fit in that category!

And- on a personal note- just like you shouldn't go to the barber with the best haircut, you should actually be looking for a coach with the most successful students, not the most personal success.