thats very good larry.
but start the trigger first, may well be the same as wait till it feels right before release. but with a different approach to the shot.
With the "start the trigger first", then watch the sights option, once attention is shifted to the sights, do you actually progress with the trigger pull, or is it fired the same as the second model, just started different?
all your attention is shifted to the sights, and your subconscious is left to release the shot, in both models in the last 200ms or so.
to add to it, what I have noticed so far is the first model steadies, lowers into target, taking less time to complete the shot as they are ready when they get there, the second goes to the target, to then settle, although both different approaches, is the release the same?
In any case, I think both models are consciously using/initiating our subconscious.
Would then the next step be to learn to consciously control our imagination.
why the next step, you cant control your subconscious 100%.
imho
bryan
fundamentals
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Steve Swartz
Ed, Bryan:
Not to muddy the waters even more . . . =8^) . . . but consider, if you will:
Perhaps our perceptions of what we are "seeing" is occuring along a couple of different dimensions; one of them being time.
During the settle we do indeed have conscious perceptions of what's going on- quality of alignment, quality of aim, pressure on trigger- all consciously monitored and managed.
As we get closer to the breaking of the shot, this whole "entering the zone" thing rears its ugly head.
Are we even really aware of what happens during the last 200ms before the break? Or are we remembering the previous couple of seconds before that moment?
Yeah, I know this will sound like a bunch of New Age mumbo jumbo . . . but:
- Ed is focusing on "keeping the trigger moving" (steadily increasing pressure against the trigger) and improving sight alignment/getting to aim area; while
- Steve is foucsing on "keeping the sights aligned" while managing/ monitoring settle in aim area and keeping trigger "stacked up," then
- We both experience the exact same thing while we are "unconscious" [sic] during the last moment
. . . our perceptions of how we shot that ten would be totally different.
This goes back to the problem of taking advice from "eyewitness accounts of the top shooters."
Human perception is a squirrely thing (technical term) and "eyewitness accounts" are inherently bogus.
Which is why- about 8 months ago (Ed? Do you remember?) when we had the discussion in detail, I actually trained using Ed's perception/theory for a couple of months. According to my logbook, I was real excited (since I was slumping/plateauing) about trying a fundamentally different perspective on how the process would work.
IIRC after two montsh I was seeing some good stuff- but I was also seeing a higher incidence of snowballs & 8s as well; so decided that for me, the "Trigger Drives Sights" mindset wasn't reliable.
So at that point I kind of "concluded" (based on limited, anecdotal evidence) that maybe there was "one way" that the actual Moment of Truth worked, but different paths to arrive at that point . . .
Steve Swartz
Not to muddy the waters even more . . . =8^) . . . but consider, if you will:
Perhaps our perceptions of what we are "seeing" is occuring along a couple of different dimensions; one of them being time.
During the settle we do indeed have conscious perceptions of what's going on- quality of alignment, quality of aim, pressure on trigger- all consciously monitored and managed.
As we get closer to the breaking of the shot, this whole "entering the zone" thing rears its ugly head.
Are we even really aware of what happens during the last 200ms before the break? Or are we remembering the previous couple of seconds before that moment?
Yeah, I know this will sound like a bunch of New Age mumbo jumbo . . . but:
- Ed is focusing on "keeping the trigger moving" (steadily increasing pressure against the trigger) and improving sight alignment/getting to aim area; while
- Steve is foucsing on "keeping the sights aligned" while managing/ monitoring settle in aim area and keeping trigger "stacked up," then
- We both experience the exact same thing while we are "unconscious" [sic] during the last moment
. . . our perceptions of how we shot that ten would be totally different.
This goes back to the problem of taking advice from "eyewitness accounts of the top shooters."
Human perception is a squirrely thing (technical term) and "eyewitness accounts" are inherently bogus.
Which is why- about 8 months ago (Ed? Do you remember?) when we had the discussion in detail, I actually trained using Ed's perception/theory for a couple of months. According to my logbook, I was real excited (since I was slumping/plateauing) about trying a fundamentally different perspective on how the process would work.
IIRC after two montsh I was seeing some good stuff- but I was also seeing a higher incidence of snowballs & 8s as well; so decided that for me, the "Trigger Drives Sights" mindset wasn't reliable.
So at that point I kind of "concluded" (based on limited, anecdotal evidence) that maybe there was "one way" that the actual Moment of Truth worked, but different paths to arrive at that point . . .
Steve Swartz
I like the terms: Align (sights), Aim (to area), and Press (trigger)
(Add some preliminary factors of eye on the sight, a measure of NPA, recoil management, and followthrough, and you got many tens.)
A mix of these operations (align, aim, press) is what you do for the shot. The how and the order of control is the rub.
(Add some preliminary factors of eye on the sight, a measure of NPA, recoil management, and followthrough, and you got many tens.)
A mix of these operations (align, aim, press) is what you do for the shot. The how and the order of control is the rub.
Most experienced conventional pistol shooters have experienced completely unconscious shooting. There have been a number of lengthy discussions on the Bullseye-L liistserve about Zen and sustained fire. Even a lowly shooter like me has had the experience (nearly an out of body sort of thing) where I seemingly watched myself execute 5 near perfect shots. My first 200 rapid fire was like that. I don't think anyone has reported it for more than a few targets. Is the technique trainable? Maybe. It would take a tremendous amount of faith in technique. Maybe the ultimate goal is to give the conscious 'GO' command from the beginning of the lift.bryan wrote:thats very good larry.
In any case, I think both models are consciously using/initiating our subconscious.
Would then the next step be to learn to consciously control our imagination.
Why not? When was the last time you missed your mouth with a fork? Or signed your name wrong? You do lots of complex motor routines all the time without error.why the next step, you cant control your subconscious 100%.
imho
bryan
I'm really not concerned with pull-sight or sight-pull. I'm working on a training plan for the rest of the year. Mostly to finally fix my trigger pull. How to get there. How to reliably and in the quickest way possible to program the motor sequence into my subconscious has me reading far too much learning theory. My growing conclusion is that this kind of thing should have already been settled by neurologists, psychologists, and our national coaches.We should not have to ask such questions. They should have already been answered.
I just finished going over the AMU manual. Nice presentation of what should happen and zilch for how to get there. Yur' Yev, as old as it is, is still the best reference on my shelf.
Larry
steve, I dont know about different dimensions/time.
If you can call the shot, you are recalling the last 200ms before and after the shot. this is important to do.
problem with taking someone elses version is they may lie for lots reasons, dont know, so tell you what they have heard is normal, and if they do know, understanding what they are saying.
when you want to increase results, you have to increase your comfort zone aswell. what I have seen in the past is if you change something, you can get the novelty effect first up, then you start thinking about results. often you get more tens than before, but some very wobbly ones to pull the results back to your comfort zone.
if diagnosed correctly, the fix is to increase comfort zone.
larry, I think it is those experiences we have that give us a lot more drive to find them again.
For a continuous match, eg ap, it is possible to be in that place the whole time. other matches would take a lot more work, but still possible.
trainable, yes, how, You need to find someone to train you. zen suggests locking yourself away for some period. not really practical.
the discussion of controlling subconscious is lengthy.
shots that didnt go where you wanted were because of the subconscious, the little guy was not happy. you dont consciously flick a 7 etc.
the quickest way to increase comfort zone, muscle memory, is visualisation, lots of it.
zen masters described some high level workings of our mind a little while ago, that western technology is still not ready to accept. So yes, it should be all laid out. and in a perfect world we shouldnt have to ask, we should have a coach that has all the answers.
I also think lots dry firing for method of trigger execution (whichever you use), and shot plan is more important than training plan.
imho
bryan
If you can call the shot, you are recalling the last 200ms before and after the shot. this is important to do.
problem with taking someone elses version is they may lie for lots reasons, dont know, so tell you what they have heard is normal, and if they do know, understanding what they are saying.
when you want to increase results, you have to increase your comfort zone aswell. what I have seen in the past is if you change something, you can get the novelty effect first up, then you start thinking about results. often you get more tens than before, but some very wobbly ones to pull the results back to your comfort zone.
if diagnosed correctly, the fix is to increase comfort zone.
larry, I think it is those experiences we have that give us a lot more drive to find them again.
For a continuous match, eg ap, it is possible to be in that place the whole time. other matches would take a lot more work, but still possible.
trainable, yes, how, You need to find someone to train you. zen suggests locking yourself away for some period. not really practical.
the discussion of controlling subconscious is lengthy.
shots that didnt go where you wanted were because of the subconscious, the little guy was not happy. you dont consciously flick a 7 etc.
the quickest way to increase comfort zone, muscle memory, is visualisation, lots of it.
zen masters described some high level workings of our mind a little while ago, that western technology is still not ready to accept. So yes, it should be all laid out. and in a perfect world we shouldnt have to ask, we should have a coach that has all the answers.
I also think lots dry firing for method of trigger execution (whichever you use), and shot plan is more important than training plan.
imho
bryan
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2650 Plus
Fundamentals
As I've mentioned before, I do not fire my pistol. I start the finger moving and leave it alone to fire the shot. After the finger starts moving my concious thoughts move on to relaxing and establishing a minimum arc of movement around my aiming area. No more than half a second is allocated to this process. Again my mind moves on,to the task of perfecting.sight allignment. Within one to three seconds I will have achieved near perfect sight allignment, My hold is stable in a minimun arc of movement and tha gun fires. I say again, I did not fire the pistol, My finger did. Also, and this I'm not sure of, It is very possible that the trigger finger is annalizing the visual input of sight allignment with that grey fuzzy thingy hanging out there in space and doing what Steve says. And then maybe not. Good Shooting Bill Horton
Re: Fundamentals
I think that the grey fuzzy thingy takes control both of the visual input and the trigger finger. Otherwise we cannot explain scores like 580/600 or above. Our ability to hold/aim/align the pistol isn't good enough to explain such scores (see Scatt or Rika patterns). As far as I remember Roberto Ferraris (Montreal 1976 medalist), former coach of Roberto Di Donna, (Atlanta 1996) wrote an interesting paper saying that. I'd try to find this paper if I can ...2650 Plus wrote: It is very possible that the trigger finger is annalizing the visual input of sight allignment with that grey fuzzy thingy hanging out there in space and doing what Steve says.
-serafino
Hi bill, I think you have a sight picture you are looking for, when this pre determined picture is attained with everything else in place (feeling) the final release of the shot occurs. your mind is controlling everything. it has signals coming in, and signals going out. training what signals are sent back out is the issue, this is the determining factor.
I am trying lots different things with pistol, I forget that I spent yrs getting where I was before, and keep expecting to be at that level by the end of the week with pistol. if not sooner, ha ha. some things I try are not helpful, but not sure if it is where I am at with pistol, or just not suitable for pistol.
things like picturing the shot placement was very important before, but may not be suitable for pistol, but havent seen any reason why it isnt.
but regardless of that it is good to see you are becoming more aware of what you are doing, or maybe just more of a common understanding.
serafino, that paper sounds interesting.
when I first started I was looking at that grey fuzzy thing very often, the result was very tight groups of 70-80% of the shots, the remaining shots I couldnt explain why they landed where they did. most likely due to sight missalignment. So now I watch the sights. groups are not as tight yet, but I call most shots.
I watched roberto Di Donna win his gold medal from the chinesse guy, was an amazing finals to watch. to see someone throw so much away on the last shot, just goes to show we are all human. actually was watching his hand as he fired to see what he was doing. hope my hand doesnt look like that when I shoot a shot that far out!
bryan
I am trying lots different things with pistol, I forget that I spent yrs getting where I was before, and keep expecting to be at that level by the end of the week with pistol. if not sooner, ha ha. some things I try are not helpful, but not sure if it is where I am at with pistol, or just not suitable for pistol.
things like picturing the shot placement was very important before, but may not be suitable for pistol, but havent seen any reason why it isnt.
but regardless of that it is good to see you are becoming more aware of what you are doing, or maybe just more of a common understanding.
serafino, that paper sounds interesting.
when I first started I was looking at that grey fuzzy thing very often, the result was very tight groups of 70-80% of the shots, the remaining shots I couldnt explain why they landed where they did. most likely due to sight missalignment. So now I watch the sights. groups are not as tight yet, but I call most shots.
I watched roberto Di Donna win his gold medal from the chinesse guy, was an amazing finals to watch. to see someone throw so much away on the last shot, just goes to show we are all human. actually was watching his hand as he fired to see what he was doing. hope my hand doesnt look like that when I shoot a shot that far out!
bryan
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2650 Plus
Fundamentals
One more time for me to try to get it right.Speaking of not thinking, does thinking of only one thing count?? That has to mean not thinking of any thing else. So if we follow along in the shot process, We think / visualize finger move. Next we think settle into minimum arc of movement. [Can't be thinking about trigger finger can we ?] Now we focus on the front sight and think / concentrate on perfecting sight allgnment. Can't be thinking about hold any more can we ? but the pistol just fired. I almost couldn't hear the report of the shot,ButI could make an almost exact call of the shot. Why is this happening? Could it be that I was only thinking about sight allignment when the pistol fired and therefore have an exact mental image of sights that permits an accurate call? Bryan,I know you think this is the hard way,But can you improve on it? If you can I'm willing to bet your name will soon be on or near the top of future match buletins
Bill, there is no right or wrong! it is more important you maintain an understanding of what you are doing. these forums are good, but could cause more harm than good. that is not following through if you change.
that's one reason why a diary is important, to be able to back track if it all goes pear shaped.
so from the bottom to the top, I know how to improve on it, have done it before, time will tell re-results.
I think it is the second best way. I think it is the hard way as you are fighting yourself, your little guy in the back of your head! in the zone is the best.
in reference to your last post, as a shooter, why is not important, how is not important, having confidence it works is.
A picture is worth a thousand words. and how do you explain a feeling! you can tell yourself to do lots more using pictures or/and feeling than any other way. I think what you are doing is fine, but in trying to understand, you are questioning yourself.
the shot plan can be very simple when you picture the process, it is good to keep it simple.
calling the shot is recalling/picturing the shot back from your subconsious, through your imagination to see what happened.
if it was at a conscious level we would not need to recall it!
as sometimes it is! you could recall other information you did subconsiously if you wanted! your coach says, you were slowly leaning back as you fired, you say was I, then go, so I was. as you went back through that part of the shot.
if there was a problem, and you keep thinking about it the chance of repeating it increase! so putting it behind you and moving on to the next shot is so important. think about a good shot.
sometimes it is difficult to understand as we have lots little bits of information that dont seem to fit together, then along comes another peice and it all starts to fit together. until that time comes dont worry to much about fitting it all together, just need to accept you can produce good results with what you have. sweating is o/k, shaking is fine, out of control is not much fun.
imho
bryan
that's one reason why a diary is important, to be able to back track if it all goes pear shaped.
so from the bottom to the top, I know how to improve on it, have done it before, time will tell re-results.
I think it is the second best way. I think it is the hard way as you are fighting yourself, your little guy in the back of your head! in the zone is the best.
in reference to your last post, as a shooter, why is not important, how is not important, having confidence it works is.
A picture is worth a thousand words. and how do you explain a feeling! you can tell yourself to do lots more using pictures or/and feeling than any other way. I think what you are doing is fine, but in trying to understand, you are questioning yourself.
the shot plan can be very simple when you picture the process, it is good to keep it simple.
calling the shot is recalling/picturing the shot back from your subconsious, through your imagination to see what happened.
if it was at a conscious level we would not need to recall it!
as sometimes it is! you could recall other information you did subconsiously if you wanted! your coach says, you were slowly leaning back as you fired, you say was I, then go, so I was. as you went back through that part of the shot.
if there was a problem, and you keep thinking about it the chance of repeating it increase! so putting it behind you and moving on to the next shot is so important. think about a good shot.
sometimes it is difficult to understand as we have lots little bits of information that dont seem to fit together, then along comes another peice and it all starts to fit together. until that time comes dont worry to much about fitting it all together, just need to accept you can produce good results with what you have. sweating is o/k, shaking is fine, out of control is not much fun.
imho
bryan
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2650 Plus
Fundamentals
Bryan, I can't recall ever meeting that little man in the backof my head and am unfamilar with the concept. Maybe I can't hear him because I am completely involved with the process of delivering the shot. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
Fundamentals
Thanks Bryan, I would never guessed the answer to the little man. By the way I left a post for you on an earlier post ' alternate point of aim'concerning a serious? post you made on that thread. You said finger move hold,bang, oops sights . I wanted you to know that you just experenced your first squeese first . I think than when you first try to execute the early pressure you experienced[ as I did ] a massive case of chicken finger. Then, either through desperation or a massive surge of courage the finger finally moved, it just moved to fast, But that was my first signal that this finger first thing might work. Good shooting Bill Horton
hope the little man/person/girl/woman, makes more sense.
i have been working on trigger operation, sometimes get it right, sometimes it just goes off before I was ready (I took to long to settle) and I get the perfect shot?, just not in the right place! Im not to bothered, it will come together.
I can also take up 70-80% hold that till Im happy, and fire it better, but not good enough.
davidM also said drive the trigger back through the sights, dont mind that either, but more aware of trigger. that has produced the highest result so far!
The common issue is not holding steady enough yet, it will get better, then I can more accurately compare different trigger proccess for me.
for the moment I will keep doing it your way as this needs the most improvement.
I can get better results doing other ways than listed above, but it wont get me where I want to go.
bryan
i have been working on trigger operation, sometimes get it right, sometimes it just goes off before I was ready (I took to long to settle) and I get the perfect shot?, just not in the right place! Im not to bothered, it will come together.
I can also take up 70-80% hold that till Im happy, and fire it better, but not good enough.
davidM also said drive the trigger back through the sights, dont mind that either, but more aware of trigger. that has produced the highest result so far!
The common issue is not holding steady enough yet, it will get better, then I can more accurately compare different trigger proccess for me.
for the moment I will keep doing it your way as this needs the most improvement.
I can get better results doing other ways than listed above, but it wont get me where I want to go.
bryan
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2650 Plus
fundamentals
Pistols change with time and technoligy. Ammunition does also.Fundamentals do not change. how we get there from here is a developemental process and changes all the tine.Sone changes are benefecial and some are no more than fads. I keep hopeing Ed,Steve Fred [all you guys that post] and others that post or will post in the future are correct and there is an easier way to do this. Until that easier way is found and proven I find myself unwilling to trust it. Last year I trained my eleven year old granddaughter to shoot 3P small bore.She entered three county [different countys] and our districk matches. She won every match including a 3P sporter rifle match in her class . She also won her class in the state match with the sporter air rifle She fired her first 100 with 7X in competition but is yet to clean a target in practice. Eleven year old kids dont have match pressure as far as I can tell. I coach and train the way I shoot because my way is the only way I am sure of. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: fundamentals
I'm envious, Bill. My daughter told me this week that the camp my grandson is going to this summer dropped its rifle program. They had a good program - he learned to shoot a BB rifle there last two summers and was ready to start with a 22 this summer. Apparently there was a lot of flak from certain parents and the camp director decided it was too much hassle. Surprising to hear about anti gun stuff in a state like like Colorado, but I guess times are changing. He comes East to visit 2-3x/yr, but hard to develop a good training program in that time frame. My other grandson lives nearby and I plan to start teaching him to shoot when he turns seven.2650 Plus wrote: Last year I trained my eleven year old granddaughter to shoot 3P small bore.