fundamentals

[Tobiasl]

[quote="_Axel_"]Im with Steve Swartz here! Majority of ppl have a 9.5ring hold according too Anatoliy Piddubnyy (and i belive him, quoted below), so its prolly not the big issue in shooting!? Stability of gun at instant of firing must be the main problem.
/[quote]

Ok one last post about this.

Who do you think will shoot more tens in the long run, a person with a steady 9.5 hold or another person with a wobbely 8.0 hold. (assuming that both shooters have equal skills regarding the other fundamentals) Isn't the answer pretty obvious? Don't say that hold doesn't matter, please.

/Tobias

[_Axel_]

A constant 8-ring hold is not a wobble.

[Guest]

"And then again many shooters who seem "know it all" can't do it at all. The more they think and talk about the process the worse they get. Like the Nike commercial says- Just do it. But I guess over thinking thinks is in fashion. As for the top shooters and Rika/Scatt tapes- Who are they? Can you be more specific. If all this thinking gets you a 547 in air pistol, maybe you think too much?"

Point well and humbly taken- when I say "XYZ" on days that I am shooting 580+, it is a very different thing than saying the same exact "XYZ" on days I am shooting 547.

Perhaps I should take the advice of the shooter who told me to never enter (or finish) a match that where I can't give a good performance.

On match day, yes, thinking is bad- I agree. But when planning and executing training, perhaps there is an advantage to understanding what is going on? At least the coach should understand what is going on, if not the shooter.

Those of us without coaches are forced to do our own thinking and shooting . . . this is not such a good thing I have found.

Of course, when Anatoliy Piddubnyy says it, it must be shit too because it is the same thing Steve Swartz (the 547 shooter) is saying . . .

Steve Swartz

[And, unlike most of you, I don't mind taking shots (even cheap shots, like above) from anonymous guests. He (she?) is either speaking truth or not. Perhaps he (she) is a 546 shooter? Or a 596 shooter? "Right" or "wrong" doesn't care about your national ranking.]

[Richard H]

Im with Steve Swartz here! Majority of ppl have a 9.5ring hold according too Anatoliy Piddubnyy (and i belive him, quoted below), so its prolly not the big issue in shooting!? Stability of gun at instant of firing must be the main problem.
/

Ok one last post about this.

Who do you think will shoot more tens in the long run, a person with a steady 9.5 hold or another person with a wobbely 8.0 hold. (assuming that both shooters have equal skills regarding the other fundamentals) Isn't the answer pretty obvious? Don't say that hold doesn't matter, please.

/Tobias

Well really the question is impossible because hold really isn't an attribute in and of its self, its product of many different attributes. So if everything of the two shooters is equal why would they have different holds?

If hold is the be all and end all, why don't we just stop shooting hook the competitors up to a Scatt or Rika and pick a winner from there? It would be way cheaper.

[Guest]

Im with Steve Swartz here! Majority of ppl have a 9.5ring hold according too Anatoliy Piddubnyy (and i belive him, quoted below), so its prolly not the big issue in shooting!? Stability of gun at instant of firing must be the main problem.
/

Ok one last post about this.

Who do you think will shoot more tens in the long run, a person with a steady 9.5 hold or another person with a wobbely 8.0 hold. (assuming that both shooters have equal skills regarding the other fundamentals) Isn't the answer pretty obvious? Don't say that hold doesn't matter, please.

/Tobias

Well really the question is impossible because hold really isn't an attribute in and of its self, its product of many different attributes. So if everything of the two shooters is equal why would they have different holds?

If hold is the be all and end all, why don't we just stop shooting hook the competitors up to a Scatt or Rika and pick a winner from there? It would be way cheaper.

OK, I'll try to make the comparision a little bit more understandable.

ONE skilled shooter, the same person all the time, is for some reason a bit more shaky than he is used to be. Lots of coffie, stressful day at work, severe match pressure etc etc. Do you really think that he will shoot as many tens or achieve a score that he usually does in a (more) steady day?

You still think hold doesn't matter? :-)

Cheers,
Tobias

[_Axel_]

Factors like stress and coffee are not pertinent to the discussion, they give true "wobble". We´re discussing hold, something u can onnly practice to achive. By Hold I mean "a steadyness in posture, that is consistent".

Tobias, please recognize that the printers of target cards have been so kind to place an 9 and an 10 ring inside the 8 ring. That way probability will ensure that u will not only shoot 8s with an 8 ring hold! *yay*

[Tobiasl]

Sorry Axel, we are discussing steady hold, if it's an important fundamental or not. You are maybe talking about stance. Who knows...?

Thanks for the info about the anatomy of a target. But who said anything about just shooting eights with an 8-ring hold, other than you? 8-ring hold means moving the sights within the inside of 8.0. With your great knowledge about printed paper targets you should be able to understand that this means that the sights are inside the 10-ring from time to time.

Cheers,
Tobias

[RobStubbs]

Why this obsession with "hold does not matter"? Is it an excuse from you not to train specifically for steady hold? I can give you some excercises if you are interested.

And yes, a steady hold is extremly important to be able to shoot many tens during a match. Why? The answer is very simple: The larger the % of sighting time inside the ten ring the larger probability to shoot a ten. Of course, trigger release must be good.

cheers,
Tobias

Of course hold matters but it isn't the most important thing. Look at a scatt trace for example, compare hold patterns between shooters and you will see there is little correlation between achieved score and the % hold inside the ten ring. Sure if it's a smaller hold it's easier to let the shot of in a wider window in the 10 ring, but even with a lower % 10 ring hold, it's more than possible to let the shot off at the right time and for it to be 10.

Rob.

[David Levene]

Sorry Axel, we are discussing steady hold, if it's an important fundamental or not.

The thread has strayed from the initial discussion of Bill's repitition of the mantra "hold the pistol still' and whether it is worthwhile if you cannot affect your here-and-now hold.

I still maintain that yes, you should train so that your hold in the future will be as small as possible but no, you should not try to reduce your hold on the day. There are more impotant things to worry about, like keeping the sights aligned while you release the shot.

[_Axel_]

Sorry Axel, we are discussing steady hold, if it's an important fundamental or not. You are maybe talking about stance. Who knows...?

Thanks for the info about the anatomy of a target. But who said anything about just shooting eights with an 8-ring hold, other than you? 8-ring hold means moving the sights within the inside of 8.0. With your great knowledge about printed paper targets you should be able to understand that this means that the sights are inside the 10-ring from time to time.

Cheers,
Tobias

Im glad u got my point! :)

No one says hold is not important, but it is not what guarantees a 10! An 8-ring hold that is consistent and used skillfully should suffice for a good score. The sight alignment and wrist steadyness is far more important.

And as David says, the thread is about if u should worry about your hold on match day, my guess is worrying would be time badly spent. Do what u have practiced!

[bryan]

things are going in circles a bit.
steve, the problem as I see it is you are taking the line "hold does not matter". most think it does! but it is one of many things that are important.
without any one of them you wont reach your best.

the only solution is if you can live with the fact as stated above. I personally would like to move on, my comments were originally trying to get you to see hold is important, and yes, not the most important.

It is a shame you dont have a coach, but thats how it is.
have you talked to russ?

self beleif is an important part of your confidence, if you continue going against the grain without backing it up, the only one it hurts is you. the last thing you want is self doubt.

having a result swing you are experiencing can be soul destroying. you can start to examine what went wrong, but really need forget it, and to look to your next comp and just enjoy it. just shoot some technically good shots, dont worry about results. results are symptoms of good technical shots. look after each shot, the rest will look after itself. shooting is simple enough, we are the ones that complicate it.

I know you know all this, but sometimes you can get distracted.


bryan

[Mellberg]

Am I the only one in here who thinks that all factors are connected in one way or another? For example: A wobbly hold leads to a defensive mood in the shooting. Grip gets tighter, you're not sure if you want to release the shot, you're not sure of exactly where you are on the target and that leads to hesitation, which ultimately often leads to a jerk and a really bad shot.
The cure is of course to ignore the wobble and simply be aggressive and try to release a smooth shot. That's somewhat of a lottery. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Another example: Your trigger action is a little jerky. This leads to (besides bad shots) hesitation and disbelief in yourself because it's almost impossible to call the shots.
The list goes on. But the most important thing is that there is a good side of this coin! A good stance leads to strength and often a good hold. Smooth release of shots leads to a nice grouping and it's very easy to call the shots correctly. This list of course is also very long and complicated. And of course - individual.

[Tobiasl]

Axel: "No one says hold is not important"
Me: That is exactly what Steve says, and that is exactly what we have been arguing about all the time !!!

Thanks Bryan for putting it so calmly and wisely. It's so easy to get all fired up on internet forums...

Well said Mellberg. A steady hold makes life so much easier for us pistol shooters. On a steady day, just smoothly press that trigger, bam, you know it's a ten, no need to check the scope. It's just a wonderful feeling!

On a wobbely day we need another tactic, more agressive. And thats more of a lottery, just as you said Mellberg.

On the other hand, a steady hold can also be counter productive. "admire the view" without activly pressing the trigger. But that's another story... :-)

Train specifically for hold, your shooting will improve!

Cheers,
Tobias

[_Axel_]

Axel: "No one says hold is not important"
Me: That is exactly what Steve says, and that is exactly what we have been arguing about all the time !!!Cheers,
Tobias

SO I'm not saying it *doesn't matter* because that would be silly. Of course it *matters,* just nowhere near as much as keepign the sights aligned, and making sure the trigger manipulation is perfect and automatic.

Steve Swartz

Swartz is a wise man, read his posts more carefully, tobias!

[Richard H]

Am I the only one in here who thinks that all factors are connected in one way or another? For example: A wobbly hold leads to a defensive mood in the shooting. Grip gets tighter, you're not sure if you want to release the shot, you're not sure of exactly where you are on the target and that leads to hesitation, which ultimately often leads to a jerk and a really bad shot.
The cure is of course to ignore the wobble and simply be aggressive and try to release a smooth shot. That's somewhat of a lottery. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Another example: Your trigger action is a little jerky. This leads to (besides bad shots) hesitation and disbelief in yourself because it's almost impossible to call the shots.
The list goes on. But the most important thing is that there is a good side of this coin! A good stance leads to strength and often a good hold. Smooth release of shots leads to a nice grouping and it's very easy to call the shots correctly. This list of course is also very long and complicated. And of course - individual.

No your not the only one, shooting is made up a a bunch of variables which one can control and some that one can not control. The system (the varibles and interaction amoungst them) is what produces the shot, to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

[David Levene]

to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

I totally disagree. The parts with the highest chance of producing a wild shot if mucked up are far more important than those with a lower chance.

[Richard H]

to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

I totally disagree. The parts with the highest chance of producing a wild shot if mucked up are far more important than those with a lower chance.

So what's unimportant then? What can't cause a shot to be something less then a 10?

[David Levene]

to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

I totally disagree. The parts with the highest chance of producing a wild shot if mucked up are far more important than those with a lower chance.

So what's unimportant then? What can't cause a shot to be something less then a 10?

Who said anything was unimportant? I am just saying that some things are more important than others.
If scores were just a case of 10s and not-10s then you might be right, but we have the added complication of 9s, 8s etc.
A fault that can possibly result in a 9 is far less important than one that could easily result in a 7 (or worse). These examples are obviously relative to a high standard shooter but the principle is the same at all levels.

[Richard H]

to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

I totally disagree. The parts with the highest chance of producing a wild shot if mucked up are far more important than those with a lower chance.

So what's unimportant then? What can't cause a shot to be something less then a 10?

Who said anything was unimportant? I am just saying that some things are more important than others.
If scores were just a case of 10s and not-10s then you might be right, but we have the added complication of 9s, 8s etc.
A fault that can possibly result in a 9 is far less important than one that could easily result in a 7 (or worse). These examples are obviously relative to a high standard shooter but the principle is the same at all levels.

Well you seemed to disagree with my statement that everything is equally important. Let me re-phrase what are the things that you feel don't contribute to missing a 10 ,becasue really thats all that matters, settling for 8s and 9s is a sure way not to improve (this depends on your level of shooting of course, but I'm talking about people who are reasonably accomplished not beginners).

Also being as we are talking about fundementals that by the very nature makes them all important. Hold is not a fundamental but a product of fundamentals and physical ability.

[David Levene]

to think that any part of the system is more important than any other is folly.

I totally disagree. The parts with the highest chance of producing a wild shot if mucked up are far more important than those with a lower chance.

So what's unimportant then? What can't cause a shot to be something less then a 10?

Who said anything was unimportant? I am just saying that some things are more important than others.
If scores were just a case of 10s and not-10s then you might be right, but we have the added complication of 9s, 8s etc.
A fault that can possibly result in a 9 is far less important than one that could easily result in a 7 (or worse). These examples are obviously relative to a high standard shooter but the principle is the same at all levels.

Well you seemed to disagree with my statement that everything is equally important. Let me re-phrase what are the things that you feel don't contribute to missing a 10 ,becasue really thats all that matters,

We disagree again, all that matters is winning the match (obviously within the rules).
Given the choice of concentrating for example on my weight distribution or on my sight alignment I know which I would go for. Mucking up the former would possibly lose me a point, two at the (unlikely) very most. Muck up the sight alignment and the loss could be much more.