fundamentals

[2650 Plus]

Fundamentals are usually described in the following manner. Hold the pistol still steadilly increase pressure with the trigger finger until the pistol fires without disturbing the stillness. Use the time before the pistol fires for perfecting sight allignment. And comply with the rules of the match. I have been challenged about my repitition of the mantra "hold the pistol still' . I contend that if you do not incorporate these fundamental steps in your technique you are doomed to be a club shooter forever. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

"keep the sights aligned before, during and after the fall of the hammer"

Thats a quote from Joe White. Found at
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/joewhite.htm

Sounds simple. But it takes a lot of understanding to actually do it. I have just discovered in my mind a difference between aligning the sights and keeping them aligned. In the flow of the shot process, if I am aligning the sights in the present as I move the trigger and refine my sight picture, the sights are a step behind the trigger. My minds sequence is out of sync.

[David Levene]

"keep the sights aligned before, during and after the fall of the hammer"

I prefer that to Tom's "hold the pistol still", which even World Champions cannot do. All that you can hope to do is reduce the amount of movement, and that is predominantly a matter of increasing (and targeting) physical fitness.

Not disturbing the sight alignment during the shot process is the key.

[Richard H]

Fundamentals are usually described in the following manner. Hold the pistol still steadilly increase pressure with the trigger finger until the pistol fires without disturbing the stillness. Use the time before the pistol fires for perfecting sight allignment. And comply with the rules of the match. I have been challenged about my repitition of the mantra "hold the pistol still' . I contend that if you do not incorporate these fundamental steps in your technique you are doomed to be a club shooter forever. Good Shooting Bill Horton

The challenge isn't to your mantra just to the over simplification of something that when challenged you have yet to explain how its done, when no one can hold the pistol perfectly still. Even if you did manage to hold it perfectly still for a fleeting moment, what would you do snatch the trigger to get the shot off?

Now having the the front sight still within the rear sight (what most of us would call aligned) is possible but the pistol will still move about.

[jackh]

Perhaps the simplest mantra that covers all the shot process flow, might be

"Keep the sights aligned while the trigger moves"

[mikeschroeder]

Perhaps the simplest mantra that covers all the shot process flow, might be

"Keep the sights aligned while the trigger moves"

Hi

The big secret to bullseye shooting is to keep the sights aligned. The miss distance from your wobble is not all that large compared to the miss distance attributed to sight misalignment.

Unfortunately there's another secret, which is HOW to keep the sights aligned at all times. In short, knowing the secret doesn't mean you can shoot 2700 in a 270 shot match.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Steve Swartz]

Bill:

You already know I don't like the phrase "hold the pistol still" because it suggests an impossibility (as David mentioned).

And- not to quibble- but this is far from how the "fundamentals are usually described." You are the first person I have ever heard to say "hold the pistol still."

I think I know what you are talking about- I think you explained a while back what you really meant was "keep the sights aligned"- but "hold the pistol still" and "keep the sights aligned" are two very different things.

Please explain exactly what you mean by "keep the pistol still." We never really did finish our discussion on the seemingly "incongruous" big wobble areas of top shooters (contradictory big wobbles and small groups).

Steve Swartz

[2650 Plus]

Hold the pistol as still as you can and strive to hold it stiller as you progress. Spend at least as much time working on holding the pistol as still as you can as you do on any other training process. I. became convinced that stillness of hold, the eyes ability to identify errors in the sight relationship and corrict them along with the pistol ammo accuracy establishes the peramiters that dictate the sise of the group on the target.[ Provided of course the shooter is houding up his end of the process ] Good shootiing Bill Horton

[AAlex]

Steve,

When I watch top shooters they almost always hold pistol remarkably still, compared to not-top shooters. Not completely still, of course, but darn close.

And I'm sure that Bill means "try to hold the pistol as still as possible" as opposed to 100% still - no impossibility there : )

[2650 Plus]

I have shot too many groups smaller than my ability to hold to not aggre with Steve. I wrote the phenominon of to luck often saying the more you practice the lucker you get Reference the comment about physical conditioning. I could not agree more. I had very little luck reducing the size of my area of aim using weights . Instead I relied on extended training periods using the pistol I was shooting as the primary weight.I regret my post was not as understandable as I might have hoped. I see nothing wrong about setting imposible goals for ones self. Who knows, I might even achieve them . Isn't that better than lesser goals that limit my potential? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz]

Sorry to quibble but obviously I'm missing a huge "aha moment" somewhere.

Bill- that's why I asked for a definition- I'm still not getting it. I totally don't understand what you are saying.

We seem to be in "violent agreement" here except for your definition of "hold the gun still" vs. my definition of "hold the gun still."

Think about it- if you are indeed "shooting inside your hold" (yep- that's what I am saying too- the top shooters definitely shoot inside their holds, all day long. We all have to be able to "shoot inside our hold" or we aren't going to shoot hardly any tens!) . . .

. . . then what on earth does "stillness" have to do anything? If you were able to hold the ten ring (keep the gun "still) then you wouldn't need to "shoot inside your hold" in order to shoot a possible.

Sounds like one of them conundrum things!

For AAlex: how have you "seen" top shooters "hold the gun still?" On a Scatt/Rika trace? Through an FTVS? Or simply your perception from x metres away? I have "seen with my own eyes" a shooter hold the gun perfectly still, when, in reality (as shown by the Scatt) he was wobbling edge to edge across the nine ring.

I guess this discussion isn't going anywhere. There is a fundamental communication problem here, and I'll be darned if I can figure it out.

All I know is a lot of top shooters shoot a buttload (metric buttload for the rest of the world) of tens, all day long, without ever holding the gun "still" for even a split second. Or even holding the gun iside the 9.5 ring for any length of time.

So I don't understand this concept of "stillness" at all.

Or why Bill and AAlex think it's so important.

Final thoughts (I promise):

I wasted a lot of time worrying about sight picture (holding the gun "still") when I really needed to be worrying about keeping the sights aligned instead. I never broke 570 until I realize the aligned sights were supposed to move around; that was their job!

But that was just me. Maybe that's why I personally think that "hold" is somewhat overrated.

Also note, however, tehat I do indeed work on improving my hold- and will be taking this next competition year "off" in order to work on physical issues (like "hold"). SO I'm not saying it *doesn't matter* because that would be silly. Of course it *matters,* just nowhere near as much as keepign the sights aligned, and making sure the trigger manipulation is perfect and automatic.

Steve Swartz

[2650 Plus]

Ideas on holding it stiller. First examine the muscles involved in the task. Which are vital to the task and which contribute nothing to the task. A good example is shooting with the shoulder held up and the arm rolled over with the elbow in a position that when bent moves the arm sideways rather than vertically. Is there any advantage in using all those muscles when by relaxing and allowing the shoulder to assune its natural position You minimize their interference with a far more steady hold? Next I w.ould say identify the most effecient method of training those muscles to hold the pistol stiller. I doubt that weight training with free weights will be the sulution. But that is up to each of us to determine whats best.Some of us will be wrong. Lets hope some of us find a way that really works Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Hold the pistol still vs dont hold the pistol still. Hold the pistol still as you can vs hold the pistol pretty still. Hold the pistol pretty still vs dont worry about it ,Just develope a perfect trigger manipulation technique. dont worry about holding the pistol, or trigger manulipulation, Just allign the sights. Whitch will result in the higher score ? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Richard H]

Hold the pistol still vs dont hold the pistol still. Hold the pistol still as you can vs hold the pistol pretty still. Hold the pistol pretty still vs dont worry about it ,Just develope a perfect trigger manipulation technique. dont worry about holding the pistol, or trigger manulipulation, Just allign the sights. Whitch will result in the higher score ? Good Shooting Bill Horton

It definately is an ah ha moment!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bryan]

steve, I think you are being a bit pedantic about this hold still issue.
it is the interpretation of the word in the context it was used.

I see hold the pistol still, so you hold it as still as you can. it doesnt intend to be like in a vice.

it doesnt mention sight alignment, but it doesnt mention breathing either!

also you still dont get it, re your hold pattern versus a top shooters hold pattern. why do you keep insisting on comparing your hold to a top shooters hold. as soon as you accept there is a difference, the sooner you will start to move forward, and stop making incorrect statements.

shooting your hold, and shooting inside your hold are two different things.
I could suggest inside your hold is not possible if you paint the ten out, as top shooters do! but you are taking the veiw of inside your average hold, not best hold.

if a top shooter shot inside his best hold all day long, it would be a new world record.
the hold is the last 1-2 seconds before the shot, and after, the reason is, that much of the time prior to this is the shot process, and the shooter may not even have looked at the sights yet, but is getting a trace.
and the trace after the shot is the follow through.

having a steady hold means you dont have to shoot better than your hold every shot to be competitive. wouldnt that be easier than thinking you have to rely on focusing 110% to make up for your hold!
would you be more confident knowing you could fire any time in the shot period and have a good result?

you even might find you start to relax a little knowing you dont have to shoot better than your hold pattern. then to watch your hold pattern reduce! imagine that.

I have no doubt you can shoot very well, but I think you need a coach with a big stick!
the first job will be to remove it.

the problem is you are looking for absolutes, there are none in this game. the fundamentals are generic. but still tailored for each individual.
this is more perceived on the mental side.
thats why you guys keep thrashing out the same subject all day. give it a few weeks and it will be raised again.
I just see you guys going in circles.

you are debating issues that are very individual, so you can debate them all day long.

there is a time you need a good coach, not a forum.


you may not care for what I have to say, but I have competed in 5 world shooting champs, 4 olympics, 2 commonwealth games, couldnt tell you how many world cups. trained in many countries, including usa.
this is over a 25yr period of international shooting.
I have had good parts, and disastrous parts, but thats the path it took to get where I am today.
I have coached from the second day I seriously took up shooting, as that was my first coaches philosophy, you want to be coached, you need to coach.

So now I am new to pistol.

Most of us shoot because we enjoy it, not for financial gain, but you do wonder who will pay the power bill sometimes.

A very successful shooter once explained to me how to become a millionaire through shooting. very simple, start with 10 million!

imho

bryan

[David Levene]

steve, I think you are being a bit pedantic about this hold still issue.
it is the interpretation of the word in the context it was used.

As I see it, the problem isn't that one shooter may have a better hold than another, it is the implied effort to hold the pistol still during the shot process.

You will only be able to hold the pistol as still as your fitness and conditions on that day allow. Attempting to hold the pistol stiller will only be detrimental.

If you want to hold the pistol still then work on shooting fitness and develop your stance to minimise the movement, preferably assisted by Scatt/Rika/Noptel etc to give quantified results.

[2650 Plus]

Bryan, Its obvious to me, without knowing any thing about you that you have been there and done that.{old army expression]. My own international training was some free pistol Highest score 560 , Rapid fire . and center fire when the dueling target was still being used. I could usually clean the duel phase and was around 95 on precision most of the time.At that time the center fire score was competitive at world level except that Bill Blankenship was world champion and usually beat me. I made a post under Steves orriginal post about the ms trigger. My post concerned scores fired in the just completed inter service match. At least one national record was fired, And the orriginal post I am refering to mentioned a second record but provided no information about it. Thats why I think we should keep discussing shooting . we are leaving a trail of information for the less experienced but probably more tallented next generation. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz]

1. Agree with David (as usual I guess)

2. *All* top shooters "shoot better than their holds"

3. There is a very good, logical, reason for #2 above

4. Obviously, obviously, obviously: you don't need a ten ring hold to shoot a lot of tens.

Why this stubborn insistence on "hold-" which you can't change on match day anyhow? Why not focus on things you *can* control?

1. Proper behaviors allow you to shoot at your potential RIGHT NOW
2. Other things improve your potential for the DAY AFTER TOMORROW

The vast majority of shooters spend way too much time worrying about #2 and never ever get anywhere close to #1.

FWIW, I would be delighted if I could consistently shoot at my potential. For the vast majority of shooters, their potential performance is wa-a-a-a-ay higher than their actual performance.

Why?

Because they are obsessing over stuff that just doesn't matter TODAY.

Like "hold."

Steve Swartz

[Mellberg]

I base a lot of my performance on my hold. I have a _very_ rigid hold, and it let's me do whatever I want to during those 5-7 seconds. Do I want to release the shot? If so I can do it in an active and offensive (but of course smooth) action. Do I want to raise the point of impact a little? Do I want to go right? Do I want to abort because of something?
My hold gives me the option of doing what I want to do whenever I want to. Not being subject to some strange feeling of "well this feels pretty *bang*.... wrong, I didn't want the shot there. Damn."

A good hold is a very important thing for me.

[Tobiasl]

Why?

Because they are obsessing over stuff that just doesn't matter TODAY.

Like "hold."

Steve Swartz

Why this obsession with "hold does not matter"? Is it an excuse from you not to train specifically for steady hold? I can give you some excercises if you are interested.

And yes, a steady hold is extremly important to be able to shoot many tens during a match. Why? The answer is very simple: The larger the % of sighting time inside the ten ring the larger probability to shoot a ten. Of course, trigger release must be good.

cheers,
Tobias