Is thinking bad ?

[2650 Plus]

The chinese shooters practise a technique that they refer to as a void. Seems to work pretty well. I avoided the void because far too many times a thought that was destructive to the shot would intrude. My conclusion was that my mind hated a void and would fill the void at every oppertunity. I decided that I'd better think about something while shootiing. James McNally [Three times winner of the Custer trophy and bronze medelist in rapid fire at the Tokyo olympics} used to say that looking at the sights was "busy work" The question becomes What and how we should think. I'll leave it here. good shooting Bill Horton

[Lents]

I avoided the void because far too many times a thought that was destructive to the shot would intrude

It is an old thing - "Do not think about monkey". For sure you will :)

[Steve Swartz]

Bill:

Welcome to the group and I appreciate your inputs; look forward to hearing a lot from you!

We've actually hashed ("Thrashed" is more like it!) this issue out several times in the last year or so. I'm too lazy to do the right thing and give everyone the links to teh most recent threads, so I'll just try to summarize for your comment (and probably screw it up and get everyone mad at me again).

Couple of different approaches on this whole "what do I think about while shooting" (mental shot process) thing. My recollection is that it breaks out kinda like this:

Approach & Settle: use whatever keywords/autosuggestion/"happy thoughts" you need to "set up" arriving on target, with sights aligned, according to NPA, ready to settle in minimum wobble arc in aiming area, and ready to release the shot (relaxed, but "intently focused").

Moment of Truth (last 200 ms before shot breaks): this is where there seems to be the most disagreement/questions.

- Some say alternate your attention between trigger, alignment, and aim

- Some say focus your eyes on the front sight and your brain on maintaining alignment, while moving the trigger

My personal take is based on the following:

- You have to think about *something*, so it might as well be something productive
- Perfect trigger (consistent smooth straight to the rear) can be trained to be pretty much "automatic"
- Maintaining alignment is something that needs conscious control
- When to release the shot (give your perfect automatic trigger permission) is best handled by the subconscious (like hitting a 90 mph fastball- too complicated to think about consciously

Anyhow, lots of eggheads with sophisticated books on this issue. Happens to be (IMNSHO) about the most important thing we can talk about when trying to improve our shooting.

Your thoughts?

Steve Swartz

[mikeschroeder]

HI

To be VERY brief, the time to think is before you pick up the firearm. After you've picked it up, your training should take over.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[2650 Plus]

Hershel Anderson said he took a month off and worked to remove every negative concept from his shooting performance, Less than a week later he fired the 2680. I fired an888 with the 45 in the same match .Anderson won with a 893.o, I contend that all thought must be positive in nature. With every thought supporting the task at hand, { Shooting a ten on the next shot] Next I had a talk with Lanny Basham and was very impresed with his ideas. He used an expression " The Ultimate you" to describe what you should base your mental and physical performance on. He was a strong proponent of visualization His consept was based on the idea that the more perfect your visualization the greater the effect was on your performance. Over the years i've seen a need to expand on the idea. I added the extension that the more often you . did the perfect visualization the greater the effect on your performance. And I added that the closer in time to the actual delivery of the shot that you did the visualization again there was a greater effect on performance. AS important as I believe this to be, a really steady hold will put more points on your score card Good Shooting Bill Horton

[James Way]

James McNally [three times winner of the Custer trophy and bronze medelist in rapid fire at the Tokyo olympics}

Actually, I think your history is a bit off. Look at this link onolympic shooting medalists.

I belive there was an olympian named John McNally who competed for the U. S. in pistol shooting. Anyone have more information?

[funtoz]

[bryan]

Bill, sounds like you are well versed in the art of shooting.
to your question Re thinking, you already have the answer.
visualising the shot just prior to the shot is telling yourself what to do the correct way, what you visualise is important as well.
by telling yourself (visualise) what to do, the chance of doing it increase.

visualise yes, verbal thinking NO

working on the process, not the result will also give you a steadier hold.

it is important to be positive to maintain good control so you can visualise properly without being distracted.

There is still more to it than that. it is not something you will find in a book to my knowledge, but then again I have never read a book on psychology. not enough pictures.

So how is lanny, he would be getting on abit now.

[_Axel_]

I reread this last nite:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/issha.htm

[bryan]

that zen stuff is quite good.

I read all the articles, It is fairly straight forward stuff.

but the link page discusses certain aspects of being somewhere, and a roundabout way of getting there, without much of a clue on where it is you need to be.

some areas are a bit hard to understand the way it is written.
there are aspects I strongly disagree with.

but where he really messed up was with "Fudoshin". if the author understood what he was writing, he would not have put it that way.

understanding "Fudoshin", ("in the zone") is easier to understand if taught, as the english language doesnt really cater for it. when it is translated, it doesnt make sense. So authors try to make sense of it.
If you get a grasp on it, you will then understand what he was trying to write, but not the other way round.

I also dont like using breathing techniques to get into the zone, though it can work, visualisation is better.
If you dont have good control, use the breathing till you do.

when not in control, focusing on your breathing takes your mind from the threat.
it is not the breathing in itself that helps calm you down, as it is a symptom, not the cause.

imho

[2650 Plus]

James McNally, The bronze medalist in tokyo is the father of John McNally

[2650 Plus]

James McNally, The bronze medalist in tokyo is the father of John McNally

[2650 Plus]

I found the "zone" both difficult to achieve and harder to maintain, I worked to achieve and sustain a consistant ability to stay in the ten ring. Tha required me to adjust my emotional intensity to the level where I had best comtrol. Ed Hall has referred to this several tmes and that may describe being in the zone. The expression was not in use until after I retrred from the Army.Good shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

Hi bill, you must of retired a long time ago then!

sorry, maybe it is because we are worlds apart.

I have been using that for over 20 yrs, dont know where I got it from, but doubt it was me.
Bit like in your bubble, i like that to rather than concentrate.

maintaining the zone can be hard because soon as we try to verbally work with it, it can go quicker than it came.
acheiving this state is also hard if you are not sure what it is you are trying to do. some find a way for them, which may not work for you.

this sounds vaugue, as it is not easy to explain.

the zone is where you are in control, not the little man in the back of your head.
a place of no limitations, everything is easy, total focus on what you want. so much so you are only aware of what you need to be, everything else disapears. a very happy place to be, that you normaly have a desire to get back there.
your results reflect this, doesnt seem to matter what you do, the results are better than training.
without much thought, everything just flows.

does this sound like your zone?

[2650 Plus]

Never, in over 20 years of competition did I ever win a match without working my tail off in practice,and sweating buckets in the match. Nothing was easy, and just flowed. I visualized every step including winning before the match started. From that time on I never allowed myself to think about anything but the next shot or the next string. Example; Set up stance, position ,Natural point of aim, Verify grip and allignment of the sights. Breathe and relax. mentally review my shot plan. Execute the shot. Sequence follows;clear mind, raise pistol to top of target lower pistol, start steady pressure on trigger stop in aiming area relax to increase stillness,focus on front sight,active mental process on perfecting sight allignment,Shot fires in suprise shot. I dont believe any thing happens during the shot sequence that is not controled mentally. I do not believe i can control my shot sequence with out thinking. I never fired a shot in practice or competition without thinking, But the thinking was controlled. It progressed step by step in rythm with the physicle acts of firing the shot. Good shooting Bill Horton

[bryan]

bill, thats the hard way to do it, and sometimes the only way if you are struggling. sweating is fine, even shaking. long as you stay in some sort of control.
acceptance that it is o/k is important to move forward.as soon as you try to supress/control these natural reactions, you start down the wrong path.
this path will lead to more of the same. even becoming worse.

you seem to of balanced it out between the two paths, but stuck in the same place. you maintained some control, but always had a fight on your hands with yourself.
many top shooters have done exactly what you have done, including myself at times, and been very successful at it. it really takes it out of you though.

elite shooters all have done this at some time, and often come prepared just in case. not funny leaving wet patches every where you go!

at the higher levels, we are taught to control these symptoms, but this creates it's own problems, as we are not dealing with the problem. fear

this is getting off the track, but by using your imagination, you are not fighting with the little man in the back of your head.
this is the step that is the most difficult to do, but easy for most once you learn how.
as you grow up you loose the ability to use your imagination, it takes alot of work and common understanding to use it again.
that is the hard work that is done before the fight.


working to an elite level is concentrated around technique/process etc.
at (570 ap according to russ, sounds about right) training would involve learning to compete, rather than shooting 10's.
training, was training to train, it then needs to shift to training to win.

both methods can be successful, but only one allows you to shoot to your dreams.

is that a better discription?

you have spent a long time learning to control your little man/person, this is what the main stream school of thought is in english speaking countries, so its not our fault we spend a long time lost and beating ourselves up over it.

How do you argue with the beliefs that have been taught for many years?

you should understand better than most, you have worked your guts out doing exactly what was asked. and it's nothing but hard work for little gain. most of these people telling you what to do have little concept of what you are putting yourself through. I know, I did what was asked as well.

bryan

[bryan]

just add to the rambling above, thinking is fine, the type of thinking is the issue.
we can verbally think, or picture/visualise, both are thinking, both using different areas of your brain, thats the thing, using the correct part of your brain blocks out other areas, you buried yourself in verbal thought to minimize uncontrolled thoughts/actions. very hard to do!

I think you have been so disciplined in your thinking, you have prevented yourself not only from having incorrect thoughts, but also getting into the zone by accident.
something to think about.

up to a certain level, main steam teaching is fine, and should be stuck to. its just the last little bit.

imho
bryan

[2650 Plus]

I reread the post by the russian coach again last night and ended up with a question rather than an answer.He to talked about not thinking but he mentioned the thought that the younger generation had ruined their minds watching TV and were incapable of directed mental processes. Did he mean that a non thinking shooting technique was all they were capable of and taught that as a means of advoiding the thought process. [ Or was he disrespecting the new breed of shooter] Good Shooting Bill Horton1372Z

[alb]

Think about this. When you form a mental image of something, even a mental image of breaking the shot correctly, you 'go internal' briefly, i.e., you stop consiously processing visual information momentarily as you 'see' the mental image. It's almost the equivalent of closing your eyes. You want to have your eyes open when you break the shot.

Regards,

Al B.

[Steve Swartz]

. . . it is impossible to "think of nothing" when operating in a non-trance conscious state (like shooting) . . .

. . . so you might as well think of something productive . . .

. . . trigger must be automatic, and release must be subconscious . . .

So that leaves FOCUS LIKE A M&*&*(&!ER ON THAT FRONT SIGHT! and think 100% about maintaining alignment.

Or not.

Steve