Note to Ed Hall
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2650Plus
Note to Ed Hall
I made an assumption about your goal that may have been in error. Do you intend to shoot over 2680? { The highest score ever fired in registered compitition}. I'm going to sugest that you may be limiting your shooting performance by having such an inquiring mind. To shoot at the highest level I believe it is necessary to train yourselt to think one thought at a time. And you have to think exactly the same thing on every shot. Think start the trigger finger moving, hold still ,Focus on the fromt ,concentrate on perfecting sight allignment until the shot fires. I a ppoligise for the presumtion that you give a hoot what I think. good shooting. Bill Horton
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2650Plus
Note to Ed Hall
I made an assumption about your goal that may have been in error. Do you intend to shoot over 2680? { The highest score ever fired in registered compitition}. I'm going to sugest that you may be limiting your shooting performance by having such an inquiring mind. To shoot at the highest level I believe it is necessary to train yourselt to think one thought at a time. And you have to think exactly the same thing on every shot. Think start the trigger finger moving, hold still ,Focus on the fromt ,concentrate on perfecting sight allignment until the shot fires. I a ppoligise for the presumtion that you give a hoot what I think. good shooting. Bill Horton
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Steve Swartz
Bill:
Ed will certainly speak for himself, but I'll toss my $0.02 in because (like Ed) I have been accused of "overanalyzing" everything to do with shooting.
I think perhaps some folks confuse "overanalyzing" *how* to shoot with "overanalyzing" *while* you shoot.
I do know Ed and I agree on NOT THINKING about your shooting while you shoot.
My philosophy is to do all your thinking before you shoot, so you don't have to do any while you shoot . . .
Steve Swartz
(p.s. all the analyzing we are doing is all about how to "set things up" with training, shot process, etc. so that the shooting itself is easy, simple, and automatic.)
Ed will certainly speak for himself, but I'll toss my $0.02 in because (like Ed) I have been accused of "overanalyzing" everything to do with shooting.
I think perhaps some folks confuse "overanalyzing" *how* to shoot with "overanalyzing" *while* you shoot.
I do know Ed and I agree on NOT THINKING about your shooting while you shoot.
My philosophy is to do all your thinking before you shoot, so you don't have to do any while you shoot . . .
Steve Swartz
(p.s. all the analyzing we are doing is all about how to "set things up" with training, shot process, etc. so that the shooting itself is easy, simple, and automatic.)
thought I would throw my 2c worth in as well, guess ed will reply when he can.
most shooters that want to be better analyze everything, over time sorting out what they need, and what they dont.
they learn to discuss issues with like minded people as this helps both parties improve.
this can be a long process, but if it was easy, why would you do it?
sometimes you can get caught up in over analysis. esp. to those that dont get it.
try getting a sheet of paper and devide it into 2. make the heading at the top left good thoughts, top right put not so good thoughts.
then over a period of time start filling the paper, soon you will see the columb on the right is way to small. with not much on the left.
hopefully by the time you have filled the first sheet things will look alot clearer.
imho
most shooters that want to be better analyze everything, over time sorting out what they need, and what they dont.
they learn to discuss issues with like minded people as this helps both parties improve.
this can be a long process, but if it was easy, why would you do it?
sometimes you can get caught up in over analysis. esp. to those that dont get it.
try getting a sheet of paper and devide it into 2. make the heading at the top left good thoughts, top right put not so good thoughts.
then over a period of time start filling the paper, soon you will see the columb on the right is way to small. with not much on the left.
hopefully by the time you have filled the first sheet things will look alot clearer.
imho
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Bryan mentioned that some of us, in the process of analyzing our shooting and searching for improvement, discuss our thoughts with like-minded individuals. I know this to be the case as I've done it myself, and this discussion board exists to support that very pourpose.
BUT I've also had the opportunity to discuss shooting with a highly accomplished shooter who's thoughts and beliefs are completely orthogonal to my own. That was an extremely useful set of discussions because it forced me to analyze my beliefs in the light of what appeared to be totally contrarian thinking. The net result was that I learned that there's more than one "right" way to do things, and that he or she who fails to challenge what he or she holds to be conventional wisdom fails to capitalize on a great opportunity for improvement and personal growth.
Shooting is 10% physical and 90% mental. Find what works for YOUR mental game and go with it!
BUT I've also had the opportunity to discuss shooting with a highly accomplished shooter who's thoughts and beliefs are completely orthogonal to my own. That was an extremely useful set of discussions because it forced me to analyze my beliefs in the light of what appeared to be totally contrarian thinking. The net result was that I learned that there's more than one "right" way to do things, and that he or she who fails to challenge what he or she holds to be conventional wisdom fails to capitalize on a great opportunity for improvement and personal growth.
Shooting is 10% physical and 90% mental. Find what works for YOUR mental game and go with it!
were is ED?
I think you are right mark, doesnt matter where the info is coming from, it is always good to gleen through it.
there are times in your life when you are not ready to accept other people veiws or concepts. this is a part of growing into who we are.
In my experience it is good to listen, as one day you may find yourself ready to progress.
over 10 yrs ago I had the veiw that I knew best, but my coach tried to teach me a better way of thinking anyway, but I didnt get it. So I understand completely where some are coming from.
But some yrs later I did stumble my way through, and what my coach was trying to teach me made sense.
My veiw is if your training scores are higher than your comp results most/all the time, then you need to find a better way to train if you really want to be better.
some prone shooters shoot perfect results in top competition, how does the accepted training/comp ratio work on this, train over 600?, like 605 maybe. then with the accepted losses, we get 600.
axel put up a link in another thread for zen shooting, where Takuan Roshi has a very good quote. some of it I could not of said better myself.
the reality is there are many ways to shoot, but only one of them is competing, the rest are surviving.
if you shoot long enough, there will be days that you compete, for they seem to come by accident, much time is spent to try to recreate this mindset, hoping it will fall upon us once again.
It is at this point we can leave the right path looking for what we already have. sometimes spending yrs out in the cold trying to empty our minds, when the reality is, it is not empty at all.
So if you are a survivor, it is very frustrating, and then to have someone try to tell you what you know best, isnt, is then highly insulting.
when I was young I was lucky enough to listen to lanny basham listen to himself talk for a few days. the one thing I took from this highly polished display, was about attitudes, he discussed changing it, but as a young teenager, I didn't get it. WHATS WRONG WITH IT!
The fact is he assumed we all needed to change, without the posibility some were fine.
what he was trying to say was we need to modify how we look at things, on and off the range. and yes he was right.
the worlds best shooters also look at things in a similar way, so make a point of mixing with them at every chance you make. not to discuss your veiws, but as an observer of thiers. even buy them a coffee/beer. might be the best couple dollars you ever spent.
imho
I think you are right mark, doesnt matter where the info is coming from, it is always good to gleen through it.
there are times in your life when you are not ready to accept other people veiws or concepts. this is a part of growing into who we are.
In my experience it is good to listen, as one day you may find yourself ready to progress.
over 10 yrs ago I had the veiw that I knew best, but my coach tried to teach me a better way of thinking anyway, but I didnt get it. So I understand completely where some are coming from.
But some yrs later I did stumble my way through, and what my coach was trying to teach me made sense.
My veiw is if your training scores are higher than your comp results most/all the time, then you need to find a better way to train if you really want to be better.
some prone shooters shoot perfect results in top competition, how does the accepted training/comp ratio work on this, train over 600?, like 605 maybe. then with the accepted losses, we get 600.
axel put up a link in another thread for zen shooting, where Takuan Roshi has a very good quote. some of it I could not of said better myself.
the reality is there are many ways to shoot, but only one of them is competing, the rest are surviving.
if you shoot long enough, there will be days that you compete, for they seem to come by accident, much time is spent to try to recreate this mindset, hoping it will fall upon us once again.
It is at this point we can leave the right path looking for what we already have. sometimes spending yrs out in the cold trying to empty our minds, when the reality is, it is not empty at all.
So if you are a survivor, it is very frustrating, and then to have someone try to tell you what you know best, isnt, is then highly insulting.
when I was young I was lucky enough to listen to lanny basham listen to himself talk for a few days. the one thing I took from this highly polished display, was about attitudes, he discussed changing it, but as a young teenager, I didn't get it. WHATS WRONG WITH IT!
The fact is he assumed we all needed to change, without the posibility some were fine.
what he was trying to say was we need to modify how we look at things, on and off the range. and yes he was right.
the worlds best shooters also look at things in a similar way, so make a point of mixing with them at every chance you make. not to discuss your veiws, but as an observer of thiers. even buy them a coffee/beer. might be the best couple dollars you ever spent.
imho
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Ed Hall
Hello everyone,
As an aside, when I was rather young, I developed the view that given a very few minutes to study any musical instrument, I would be able to play the tune to "Mary Had A Little Lamb." It didn't sound quite right on the triangle or available drums, but otherwise, I've been successful with instruments which are capable of the notes. I know playing such a basic tune is rather simple compared to shooting a ten - or is it, if you really KNOW you can?
Thank you for digging me out and adding in some food for my consumption.
As another aside, I'm usually a positive-preaching guy, who has been caught falling back into my error-correction background on occasion (reading this FredB?). Bryan's paper with two columns reminded me of a suggestion I made somewhere a while back about how to approach the need to focus on all the things you're doing wrong instead of all the things you're doing right. How often do all the shooters around you get wrapped up in outdoing each other with who is having the worst day? Anyway, my suggestion was to write down all the things that brought success on one page of your diary and all the things you did wrong on another page. Then read over all those things you did wrong, because you want to do that anyway. (You might even consider sharing them with your nearest rival.[grin]) Then, violently tear up that page and throw it away! (A little mental symbolism here.) Now you can study those things that work when you read your diary - which is what I normally suggest spending your study time on.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
I don't seem to have number goals, per se, right now. They became very limiting because I kept using them wrong. I hesitate to say so openly, but my goal is to make shooting tens as natural as other daily physical things such as walking, driving, etc. If that skill can be acquired, the scores will follow as easily as deciding to compete.Bill Horton wrote:I made an assumption about your goal that may have been in error. Do you intend to shoot over 2680?
As an aside, when I was rather young, I developed the view that given a very few minutes to study any musical instrument, I would be able to play the tune to "Mary Had A Little Lamb." It didn't sound quite right on the triangle or available drums, but otherwise, I've been successful with instruments which are capable of the notes. I know playing such a basic tune is rather simple compared to shooting a ten - or is it, if you really KNOW you can?
I would agree with you whole-heartedly. It has been a continuous struggle to try to remove the analytical part, but it is so ingrained that in order to believe in something I have to know the "why?" I don't necessarily have to know the correct answer to continue, but the answer has to be feasible within my current belief system. This very well may be why I am driven to this sport.Bill Horton also wrote:I'm going to sugest that you may be limiting your shooting performance by having such an inquiring mind.
My current belief is it is best to think of nothing during the final phase of the shot. For a time, my belief was to visualize the exact thing you wanted to have unfold during the process, such that the visualization and the reality of the shot progress could marry into a single unfolding action - kind of like seeing two versions of the same event, one version with each eye, but in this case, one physical eye and the other, mental imaging. I currently believe that that approach is actually detrimental instead, due to the time lag of the consciousness.Bill Horton futher wrote:To shoot at the highest level I believe it is necessary to train yourselt to think one thought at a time.
No apologies necessary on my account. I'm fully aware of the struggle between trying to shed light for another and having it reflected back dimly or color-shifted. I've had many instances of, "Oh, that's what they meant!" in my years of shooting - often several over the same item. I try to pass on my beliefs for many reasons. The first is probably just human nature; the second, in hopes it may illuminate something for another shooter; the third, although my ego won't accept it, is probably so someone can tell me I'm full of it.Additionally, Bill Horton wrote:I a ppoligise for the presumtion that you give a hoot what I think.
Thank you for digging me out and adding in some food for my consumption.
As another aside, I'm usually a positive-preaching guy, who has been caught falling back into my error-correction background on occasion (reading this FredB?). Bryan's paper with two columns reminded me of a suggestion I made somewhere a while back about how to approach the need to focus on all the things you're doing wrong instead of all the things you're doing right. How often do all the shooters around you get wrapped up in outdoing each other with who is having the worst day? Anyway, my suggestion was to write down all the things that brought success on one page of your diary and all the things you did wrong on another page. Then read over all those things you did wrong, because you want to do that anyway. (You might even consider sharing them with your nearest rival.[grin]) Then, violently tear up that page and throw it away! (A little mental symbolism here.) Now you can study those things that work when you read your diary - which is what I normally suggest spending your study time on.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
analyze
I have read Mr. Halls essays with great interest over the last few years. Very instructive and enlightening. To excel in any martial art, which shooting ultimately is, requires constant analyzation, in an attempt to perfect all the elements. This sets the foundation for the Zen like state that we strive for. Without the mastery of the fundamentals, auto-pilot will crash and burn. Training without insight is empty and does not load the subconscious with the tools to excel. So analyze and perfect what works for you and clear your mind when you hear “shooter ready”.
Gort
Gort
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2650 Plus
Ed Hall
I feel better now. I've heard from Ed. The idea about the two sided paper was one suggested by the best coach I ever had. The problem I had with it was that I refused to write any thing on the negetive side of the paper. I reached the point where I would not even post a 9 in my score book.My approach became so totally positive that all I was willing to consider was how I shot tens and what influenced that act. And often that really was fun Good Shooting Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
Wad and ball
Bryan, you may never read this because its on an old post but I wanted to tell you that your discription of trigger, hold bang sights is exactly what you should be looking for. This is especially true for tined and raoid fire amd applies to the standard pistol as well. Being concerned that you will have an early shot causes a masive case of chicken finger. My own experience was that the early shot was my first confirmation that I really did apply pressure to the trigger before I started alligning the sights. I think that after all the chicken finger ,I had a sudden burst of courage causing the early discharge orf the shot but that was a break through. Good Shooting Bill Horton
How could I miss one of your threads bill, it's not that old.
the first post was in referece to your very busy shot discription. I thought it funny at the time, but I now see the error of my ways. although still busy, I should of given you more respect than I did. sorry
The paper exercise becomes clear after completing it correctly. invariably you end up with not much on one side, the realisation of not thinking verbaly can be driven home by the coach, using your own information you provided over a period of time.
at worst, you can implement strategies to deal with any unexpected results that may be uncovered.
the columbs should be titled good thoughts/ not so good thoughts.
not positive/negative, or right/wrong etc, these things should be noted in diary for consultation with coach to find solution to fix. or post on here!
bryan
the first post was in referece to your very busy shot discription. I thought it funny at the time, but I now see the error of my ways. although still busy, I should of given you more respect than I did. sorry
The paper exercise becomes clear after completing it correctly. invariably you end up with not much on one side, the realisation of not thinking verbaly can be driven home by the coach, using your own information you provided over a period of time.
at worst, you can implement strategies to deal with any unexpected results that may be uncovered.
the columbs should be titled good thoughts/ not so good thoughts.
not positive/negative, or right/wrong etc, these things should be noted in diary for consultation with coach to find solution to fix. or post on here!
bryan
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2650 Plus
Note to Ed Hall
Bryan, You have done it again. I thought I had the note book thing figured out and youve got me reexamining the whole thing all over again. I see exactly what I think you mean,and this is not a miss statement. I have no doubt that you will master the pistol at least as well as you once shot the rifle. As far as I know, USAMU has not published any guidance on international pistol. If Russ has posted anything on his webb page you might want to take a look and see what his thinking is. The Russian coach has some words of wisdom on this site But my best guess is that you have already studed that information. The other source that I've stumbled over is also written by a russian coachbut it is somewhat outdated except for training on fundamentals. Ive wished many shooters good luck but never one more than you. Good Shooting Bill Horton