Does any one have, or know of any website, material for gettin kids started on pistol shooting
regards
Julian
Coaching Kids
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
kids trainning
Julian:
If you find something for training for kids, please you warn.
this subject is very controversial, since the shot clubs seem a church that an amused place, cannot be made noise and the light is not very good. More important so that the children enlist in the shot, it is that they are amused, that passes it well, if for that it is necessary to break some rules of the ISSF, in the beginning you must do it, soon the children morepersistent they remained.
luck,
Nano
If you find something for training for kids, please you warn.
this subject is very controversial, since the shot clubs seem a church that an amused place, cannot be made noise and the light is not very good. More important so that the children enlist in the shot, it is that they are amused, that passes it well, if for that it is necessary to break some rules of the ISSF, in the beginning you must do it, soon the children morepersistent they remained.
luck,
Nano
Julian,
Sorry this is so wordy. I hope it helps. Here is what I have been doing.
I introduced my three oldest to pistol shooting about 6 weeks ago. They are 13, 12, and 9. The 13 and 12 year-old have done very well and improved quite a bit with the few sessions we have had.
I am using two APs and a 10m range in our attic to get things started. I tried to find anything on open source. There are a few programs through NRA, 4H and CMP. Most of these emphasize rifle shooting. I found some great articles on the fundamentals of precision pistol shooting on the Pilkguns website (Hitchhiker’s guide). I ordered some tapes and the “Advanced Pistol Guide” as written by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit from CMP as well.
I learned precision marksmanship from the AMU. I have used most of the basics from that manual for the past 20 years. It isn’t the only place to start but it is a good one. I have been reading a lot of other coaching material that sounds very familiar to AMU methodology and some interesting articles on rhythm and cadence.
Here is what seemed to work for us so far.
Be positive. If its not fun the kids will find other, more fun things to do with their time.
Start easy. The 13 and 12 year (girls) had no trouble with the FWB P44. I even had to add some weight to it for them. The P40 is too heavy for the 12 year old. My oldest does just fine with either pistol. My 9 year old is good for about 15 shots with the P44 and he’s worn out. But even he can keep all his shots inside the scoring rings for those 15 shots.
Get them shooting quickly. Kids don’t like to talk about having fun, they want to have fun. I found the rules of the range and a very directed and specific safety briefing worked well. I had to reinforce the rules a few times. It is important to demonstrate that range rules and safety are not negotiable items. The other important aspect of getting them started was to put them on a range where they didn’t have to worry about missing the target, or shooting the floor, or a premature shot. We had plenty of those. By taking away the fear of those things we were able to concentrate on the basics that got all the kids on the target quickly. I think it cost me about 12 Euro to mount some oriented strand flooring boards as a back stop for the pellet traps. I dropped another 20 Euro on a spot light for the targets and a fluorescent light for the firing line. The kids were having a hard time seeing the sights with the ceiling lights (6 X 60watt bulbs). We hung an old set of curtains over the back stop to stop ricochets and we were off and running.
Sight alignment- Draw a picture. New shooters generally have no frame of reference to draw from. If they have shot rifle before they will understand sight alignment fundamentals but may have trouble with the three post arrangement.
Trigger Control- It is very important to observe how a new shooter pulls the trigger. Almost 100% of the new shooters I have ever watched (including myself) jerked or slapped the trigger. This was, again, universally done to “make the shot happen” when the sights and the target were perfectly aligned. Almost 100% of those same shooters start healing their shots when they become aware of jerking or slapping the trigger.
It would be a good idea to demonstrate a good stance but don’t worry about it at this point. Let the kids shoot until they grasp the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. They will ask when they are ready to move to the next step. It usually starts with,” How come I can’t shoot better/get a tighter group/ keep missing the black?”
Introduce Stance and then spend a couple lessons integrating it into the sight picture and trigger control equation. This is a great time to introduce the concept of rhythm and cadence as well. Their minds will be open to the “tricks” but may be a bit overwhelmed trying to put it all together.
By now the new shooters should be keeping 99% of their shots in the pellet trap/target frame and can start working on getting the group size down. This is where I’m at now. Keeping the shooting fun and focusing the shooting sessions on a developmental objective has become the real challenge.
I borrowed a few hints from the rifle page last night and glued sugar candies to the bulls eyes. I gave each of the kids three shots and told them they could have a small handful of candies If they shattered the one glued to the target. It was a huge success and the kids had a ball. They were very proud of their accomplishment and enjoyed the “competition”. The candies were the same size as the 10 ring; a fact I reminded one of my daughters about today when she was feeling frustrated. The expression on her ace was like watching the lights come on after dark.
Some things to watch for:
Fatigue- New shooters get tired quickly. Tired shooters don’t get better and start looking for gimmicks to overcome their poor performance. Don’t be afraid to call a halt to the days session if the shooters are getting tired.
Holding too long- Once the idea of good sight alignment is understood you will see new shooter holding for 6 to 9 seconds before even attempting to break the shot. This goes back to trigger control (jerking/slapping) and rhythm/cadence.
Poor stance- You will see the new shooter fighting with themselves to keep the pistol aligned or holding their body in ways that will make you cringe. Correct gross stance issues quickly. You may just have to tell them to do it. An imposed stance will seem awkward or uncomfortable the first few times using it. You’ll need to help the shooter find a comfortable stance that works. Work through it in a positive way. Remember, they will ask why they are not improving and you can work on stance with a more willing student.
I have introduced the concept of scoring but have not tried to score any of their targets yet. I’m considering postal matches for a first competition. However, I have one daughter who is very “risk averse”. She doesn’t like having the fact that she is not the best demonstrated to her in any public manner. I’ll let you know how that works out.
Hope all this helps. I’m feeling my way through this as well. Good Shooting,
Phil
Sorry this is so wordy. I hope it helps. Here is what I have been doing.
I introduced my three oldest to pistol shooting about 6 weeks ago. They are 13, 12, and 9. The 13 and 12 year-old have done very well and improved quite a bit with the few sessions we have had.
I am using two APs and a 10m range in our attic to get things started. I tried to find anything on open source. There are a few programs through NRA, 4H and CMP. Most of these emphasize rifle shooting. I found some great articles on the fundamentals of precision pistol shooting on the Pilkguns website (Hitchhiker’s guide). I ordered some tapes and the “Advanced Pistol Guide” as written by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit from CMP as well.
I learned precision marksmanship from the AMU. I have used most of the basics from that manual for the past 20 years. It isn’t the only place to start but it is a good one. I have been reading a lot of other coaching material that sounds very familiar to AMU methodology and some interesting articles on rhythm and cadence.
Here is what seemed to work for us so far.
Be positive. If its not fun the kids will find other, more fun things to do with their time.
Start easy. The 13 and 12 year (girls) had no trouble with the FWB P44. I even had to add some weight to it for them. The P40 is too heavy for the 12 year old. My oldest does just fine with either pistol. My 9 year old is good for about 15 shots with the P44 and he’s worn out. But even he can keep all his shots inside the scoring rings for those 15 shots.
Get them shooting quickly. Kids don’t like to talk about having fun, they want to have fun. I found the rules of the range and a very directed and specific safety briefing worked well. I had to reinforce the rules a few times. It is important to demonstrate that range rules and safety are not negotiable items. The other important aspect of getting them started was to put them on a range where they didn’t have to worry about missing the target, or shooting the floor, or a premature shot. We had plenty of those. By taking away the fear of those things we were able to concentrate on the basics that got all the kids on the target quickly. I think it cost me about 12 Euro to mount some oriented strand flooring boards as a back stop for the pellet traps. I dropped another 20 Euro on a spot light for the targets and a fluorescent light for the firing line. The kids were having a hard time seeing the sights with the ceiling lights (6 X 60watt bulbs). We hung an old set of curtains over the back stop to stop ricochets and we were off and running.
Sight alignment- Draw a picture. New shooters generally have no frame of reference to draw from. If they have shot rifle before they will understand sight alignment fundamentals but may have trouble with the three post arrangement.
Trigger Control- It is very important to observe how a new shooter pulls the trigger. Almost 100% of the new shooters I have ever watched (including myself) jerked or slapped the trigger. This was, again, universally done to “make the shot happen” when the sights and the target were perfectly aligned. Almost 100% of those same shooters start healing their shots when they become aware of jerking or slapping the trigger.
It would be a good idea to demonstrate a good stance but don’t worry about it at this point. Let the kids shoot until they grasp the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. They will ask when they are ready to move to the next step. It usually starts with,” How come I can’t shoot better/get a tighter group/ keep missing the black?”
Introduce Stance and then spend a couple lessons integrating it into the sight picture and trigger control equation. This is a great time to introduce the concept of rhythm and cadence as well. Their minds will be open to the “tricks” but may be a bit overwhelmed trying to put it all together.
By now the new shooters should be keeping 99% of their shots in the pellet trap/target frame and can start working on getting the group size down. This is where I’m at now. Keeping the shooting fun and focusing the shooting sessions on a developmental objective has become the real challenge.
I borrowed a few hints from the rifle page last night and glued sugar candies to the bulls eyes. I gave each of the kids three shots and told them they could have a small handful of candies If they shattered the one glued to the target. It was a huge success and the kids had a ball. They were very proud of their accomplishment and enjoyed the “competition”. The candies were the same size as the 10 ring; a fact I reminded one of my daughters about today when she was feeling frustrated. The expression on her ace was like watching the lights come on after dark.
Some things to watch for:
Fatigue- New shooters get tired quickly. Tired shooters don’t get better and start looking for gimmicks to overcome their poor performance. Don’t be afraid to call a halt to the days session if the shooters are getting tired.
Holding too long- Once the idea of good sight alignment is understood you will see new shooter holding for 6 to 9 seconds before even attempting to break the shot. This goes back to trigger control (jerking/slapping) and rhythm/cadence.
Poor stance- You will see the new shooter fighting with themselves to keep the pistol aligned or holding their body in ways that will make you cringe. Correct gross stance issues quickly. You may just have to tell them to do it. An imposed stance will seem awkward or uncomfortable the first few times using it. You’ll need to help the shooter find a comfortable stance that works. Work through it in a positive way. Remember, they will ask why they are not improving and you can work on stance with a more willing student.
I have introduced the concept of scoring but have not tried to score any of their targets yet. I’m considering postal matches for a first competition. However, I have one daughter who is very “risk averse”. She doesn’t like having the fact that she is not the best demonstrated to her in any public manner. I’ll let you know how that works out.
Hope all this helps. I’m feeling my way through this as well. Good Shooting,
Phil
This is an interesting subject, new to pistol it is different than rifle in some aspects.
one being the strength required for pistol is far greater compared with a rifle on a rest.
I am wondering can you start them out with the pistol in a rest of some type to shoot, and possibly dry fire unsupported till they are stronger.
then their trigger control will be better, dont fatigue as quick with better results straight up, a little less discouraging.
the lolly idea sounds good.
tried small balloons on the target frame, long as they wait till it gets to the 10mtr mark!
I think if they enjoy it, they will be back. so that is the main goal until they are hooked.
kids get very competative, so they need other kids to shoot against, and something to shoot for.
one being the strength required for pistol is far greater compared with a rifle on a rest.
I am wondering can you start them out with the pistol in a rest of some type to shoot, and possibly dry fire unsupported till they are stronger.
then their trigger control will be better, dont fatigue as quick with better results straight up, a little less discouraging.
the lolly idea sounds good.
tried small balloons on the target frame, long as they wait till it gets to the 10mtr mark!
I think if they enjoy it, they will be back. so that is the main goal until they are hooked.
kids get very competative, so they need other kids to shoot against, and something to shoot for.
-
JulianY
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
- Contact:
For my $0.02 that is exactly the way to go with the younger ones. though I suspect dry fire will bore the pants off them almost instantly.bryan wrote:T
I am wondering can you start them out with the pistol in a rest of some type to shoot, and possibly dry fire unsupported till they are stronger.
then their trigger control will be better, dont fatigue as quick with better results straight up, a little less discouraging.
JY
Yep kids will very rapidly get bored with dry firing - unless you're using scatt or similar. You're far better off getting them to shoot at reduced distances / with rests IMHO.
The key factor is to keep them interested and you need to know what made them want to shoot in the first place - that's probably shooting a gun and hitting a target. Whatever their answer is, one thing I can guarantee it won't be is dry firing.
Rob.
The key factor is to keep them interested and you need to know what made them want to shoot in the first place - that's probably shooting a gun and hitting a target. Whatever their answer is, one thing I can guarantee it won't be is dry firing.
Rob.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
A system I have seen used in a few countries is, and I hope I can describe it:-
You have a padded hook large enough for the shooter to rest his wrist in when in the shooting position.
This hook has a cord attached to it that goes up to a ceiling mounted pulley, along the ceiling to another ceiling mounted pulley behind the firing point, and down to a set of removable counterweights.
You simply add or remove weights to suit the weight of the pistol and the strength of the shooter. This leaves the shooter to just worry about lining up the sights and squeezing the trigger, removing the extra problems of actually lifting the pistol.
You can even run competitions with classes according to the amount of counterweight allowed.
You have a padded hook large enough for the shooter to rest his wrist in when in the shooting position.
This hook has a cord attached to it that goes up to a ceiling mounted pulley, along the ceiling to another ceiling mounted pulley behind the firing point, and down to a set of removable counterweights.
You simply add or remove weights to suit the weight of the pistol and the strength of the shooter. This leaves the shooter to just worry about lining up the sights and squeezing the trigger, removing the extra problems of actually lifting the pistol.
You can even run competitions with classes according to the amount of counterweight allowed.
yes you are right about dry firing, dont know what I was thinking, but it got some ideas which had stopped for a while.
some sort of support from the roof sounds good to.
maybe some heavy duty rubber tubing like on those sling shots hanging off the roof, could have an adjustable loop from webbing from a army disposals type place. they have adjustable clips to suit.
will try that unless there is a better idea!
be good if it takes about half the weight.?
maybe just a big loop off the roof, the taller/stronger the child, the less support it will give if I get the size of the rubber right.
that sound better?
have shot at steel targets that have different size holes in the centre of them, when the shot passes through the hole, a white disc swings up in front of the aiming area showing a hit.
5 targets in a row. after 5 shots you pull a rope to reset.
sure this would be a huge hit with the kids if the holes are the right size.
also a big hit with the much older kids!
anyone have photos?
some sort of support from the roof sounds good to.
maybe some heavy duty rubber tubing like on those sling shots hanging off the roof, could have an adjustable loop from webbing from a army disposals type place. they have adjustable clips to suit.
will try that unless there is a better idea!
be good if it takes about half the weight.?
maybe just a big loop off the roof, the taller/stronger the child, the less support it will give if I get the size of the rubber right.
that sound better?
have shot at steel targets that have different size holes in the centre of them, when the shot passes through the hole, a white disc swings up in front of the aiming area showing a hit.
5 targets in a row. after 5 shots you pull a rope to reset.
sure this would be a huge hit with the kids if the holes are the right size.
also a big hit with the much older kids!
anyone have photos?
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
You are probably talking about a system like the Rika LP5 system sold in the US by Pilkingtons.bryan wrote:yes you are right about dry firing, dont know what I was thinking, but it have shot at steel targets that have different size holes in the centre of them, when the shot passes through the hole, a white disc swings up in front of the aiming area showing a hit.
5 targets in a row. after 5 shots you pull a rope to reset.
sure this would be a huge hit with the kids if the holes are the right size.
also a big hit with the much older kids!
anyone have photos?
With the correct (30mm hole) insert they comply with ISSF rule 8.20.9.1 but other sized inserts are available. Kids (and adults) love them because they get instant feedback.
Julian, I just checked the USAS web site. Bob Foth at their HQ. in Colorado Springs, is the man that's running the program. Here's his E-mail address.
bob.foth@usashooting.org
Good Luck,
Paul
bob.foth@usashooting.org
Good Luck,
Paul
PPP program
USA Shooting does run the Progressive Position Air Pistol (PPP) program in the US. This summer we will hold a joint Junior Olympic Championship with the NRA in Bowling Green, KY July 7-9. Please contact me if you are interested in participating.
The program currently consists of five sequential positions designed to give juniors a great introduction to the sport and grow the pistol sports in the US. Juniors learn good sight picture and trigger control fundamentals with relatively stable positions and eventually progress to the one-handed standing International position. Early success is possible as they can compete while the weight of the pistol is supported. We also hope to reduce the risk of injury in young shooters from the possible strain of too much one-handed shooting too early.
I do hope to institute a few rule changes after the Championship. In particular, I hope to make what is currently the 4th position into a one-handed SUPPORTED position. I think we may have more luck using something like a (readily available) rifle off-hand stand to support the forearm of the young athlete, instead of the adjustable sling hung from the ceiling mentioned earlier in this thread. We may also look at consolidating the three seated "table" positions down to one or two.
More information will be available as we add to our evolving NEW website.
The program currently consists of five sequential positions designed to give juniors a great introduction to the sport and grow the pistol sports in the US. Juniors learn good sight picture and trigger control fundamentals with relatively stable positions and eventually progress to the one-handed standing International position. Early success is possible as they can compete while the weight of the pistol is supported. We also hope to reduce the risk of injury in young shooters from the possible strain of too much one-handed shooting too early.
I do hope to institute a few rule changes after the Championship. In particular, I hope to make what is currently the 4th position into a one-handed SUPPORTED position. I think we may have more luck using something like a (readily available) rifle off-hand stand to support the forearm of the young athlete, instead of the adjustable sling hung from the ceiling mentioned earlier in this thread. We may also look at consolidating the three seated "table" positions down to one or two.
More information will be available as we add to our evolving NEW website.
- Attachments
-
- Rules - Progressive-Position AP Program 16 March 05.doc
- PPP rules
- (485 KiB) Downloaded 145 times