Rapid-Fire AP's?

[hb10mshoter]

I've heard a lot about 5 shot semi-auto AP's. What type of competition are they used for and are there any governing bodies for that type of competition?

[David Levene]

See the ISSF Rules For 5 Shot Air Pistols

In the UK we also use them to shoot all of the ISSF 25m events and a 10m scaled down Rapid Fire as well.

[Dragon 2]

I know that the ISSF has some rapid fire air pistol events.

I am currently debating between two semi-auto air pistols:

FWB P56 and the Steyr LP 50. I have a couple of FWB single shot pistols I enjoy a great deal. The cost for the FWB is around 1800 USD and the 1675 USD for the Steyr. What few articles I can find on either pistol do not go very far to help make a decision on either pistol.

The Steyr can be ordered or retro-fitted with 600-1400g trigger designed for .22 and center fire training. The Steyr also comes with 2X 5 shot clips, 2 air cylinders, 4 barrel weights, a DIN adaptor, grease, tools, fitted case, and manual. LP 50 appears based on the LP10 design.

The FWB comes with 1 5 shot clip, 1 single shot clip, 1 test clip, a cylinder, DIN adaptor, tools, manual, and fitted case. The P56 appears based on the P40 design. Doesn't suport more than 600g trigger.

At 100+ dollars a clip or cylinder the cost advantage goes to Steyr. If the decision were only a matter of cost I wouldn't be asking for any other input.

I would really like to know if anyone has used these pistols and what they think of them, how reliable, ease of use/loading, maintenance. It would also be good to know what events are available as well.

Thanks

[RobStubbs]

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I would really like to know if anyone has used these pistols and what they think of them, how reliable, ease of use/loading, maintenance. It would also be good to know what events are available as well.

Thanks

In the UK we shoot these guns a lot. 90%+ of five shot air pistols in comps are Steyr LP5's or 50's. My LP5 is probably 4 or 5 years old and I have only ever had one problem, that was rectified by the service agent. I shoot mine a lot doing all the 5-shot 25M events as well 10M rapid fire.

My personal opinion is that I'd only consider the Steyr. They are just so well proven and well used and are a very good and accurate gun.

Rob.

[Guest]

I've had the Steyr LP50 for about 4 years now and it has been utterly reliable. Before I started shooting 5 shot events with it, I was regularly shooting 560's in regular competition.

THe trigger on the LP50 does not compare to the single shot shooters like the LP1/LP10 or the Morini's but it is pretty good nonetheless and the gun performs very well in the 5 shot matches.

By the way, our host sells and services the LP50. I wouldnt shop anywhere else.

[Dragon 2]

Thanks for info.

I was aware that PILKGUNS sells the LP50. Their web page was where I got most of my information on the LP50. It is difficult to make a good assessment off a few pictures and sales comments.

The LP line gets a lot of good press. I was hoping to find out more info about the P56. With the two FWBs I already have I was interested in staying with a single brand if the opinions indicated there wasn't much difference.

I like that the LP50 has the extra clip and cylinder. The extras add up quick with FWB.

The LP50 comes with a DIN adaptor and that means I can use the hand pump I already have (a plus). The connection point on the cylinder seems a bit small on the Steyr cylinders. Has anyone had trouble with it or am I seeing something that isn't there?

Good info on the trigger but I was considering the heavy trigger if I went with the Steyr. I shoot a lot of center fire with 9mm and up when I can find a good range to shoot at. The 4 pound trigger option extends center fire training options. Of course, having both triggers lets me train center fire and ISSF air rapid. The Steyr keeps looking better and better.

Thanks again. I'm still waiting to hear from anyone shooting with the P56.


Phil

[jipe]

The previous FWB model P55 had a lot of problems. This is the reason why almost all people used the Steyr LP5 and then LP50 which are famous for their reliability.

Recently, FWB introduced the P56, it is may be a good pistol, but the bad reputation of the P55 and the higher price makes that it doesn't sell well, so that most people still buy the LP50. Actually I have never seen anybody using the P56 !

May be another consideration: if you want to sell your pistol after a while, LP50 are very easy to sell as used and are sold for a high price.

Selling a used P56 will probably be much more difficult and the price will probably be much lower.

[PaulT]

I have a “normal” LP5 (12 years) and custom LP50 (5 months). The LP50 has a short cylinder and the barrel is same length as the LP2 compact. With additional weights on barrel, the balance and sight radius is near the same as a 25m pistol. Trigger has been set up with 2 stage 1000g trigger that is nice and clean. I know the UK importer did a lot of work on the trigger and the velocity is higher to accommodate 25m shooting. Both good reliability, however, a factory trained engineer essential for service.

[Dragon 2]

The P56 isn't looking too good. I'll see if I can get my hands on either the Steyr or the FWB for a test shoot. If I'm lucky, maybe both. My local store didn't have either one in stock last time I checked.

I'll post my impressions if I can make it happen.

Please keep posting your thoughts on the subject. Resale value was not something I was including in my decision tree. I will add that. I've never tried air at 25m nor outdoors. I concept worth exploring as well.

Good shooting,
Phil

[jipe]

May be one more thing you should consider: 5 shots AP are primarily made... to shoot 5 shots !

This means that using a 5 shot AP in 10m AP competition is quite unconvenient compared to using a single shot AP.

In 10m AP competition you need to use a single shot clip (you are not allowed to use the 5 shot clip) meaning that, for each shot, you have to introduce the pellet into the clip, then introduce the clip into the pistol, shoot and finally remove the clip to load it again. Compared to a single shot pistol where you have only to open the loader and introduce a pellet.

You may argue that such a pistol can be used for both types of competitions, rapid fire and 10m. But for rapid fire the trigger weigth is not limited and is usually set at a very low value while for 10m it must be 500gr. So, if you would like to use the same pistol for both, either you have to do rapid fire with 500gr weight (what is allowed but is a disadvantage compared to other competitor using a low weight), either modify the trigger weight for each activity what seems to me almost unfeasible.

On top of that, you have the lack of 2 stage trigger that is also a major drawback for 10m use (you do not know accurately when the shot occur and with a two stage the 500gr is the sum of the two stages).

Finally, for the LP50, the dry fire method is by using a special clip (not delivered with the pistol) instead of just putting the cocking lever in the dry fire position as for the LP10 (I do not know how dry fire is provided for the FWB P56).

For me the conclusion of all this is that 5 shot AP's should only be used for what they are made for, i.e. rapid fire. To do 10m AP competition, a single shot AP is needed.

[IPshooter]

On top of that, you have the lack of 2 stage trigger that is also a major drawback for 10m use (you do not know accurately when the shot occur and with a two stage the 500gr is the sum of the two stages).

I would generally agree with most everything you say except this. My NSHO is the individual shooter has to determine whether a single- or two-stage trigger is best for him/her. What works for that one shooter is the set-up that meshes with their human-pistol interface and that is a very personal thing.

The bottom line is one has to try it both ways, allowing sufficient time to really answer the question, before reaching a conclusion.

Stan

[Fred Mannis]

In 10m AP competition you need to use a single shot clip (you are not allowed to use the 5 shot clip) meaning that, for each shot, you have to introduce the pellet into the clip, then introduce the clip into the pistol, shoot and finally remove the clip to load it again. Compared to a single shot pistol where you have only to open the loader and introduce a pellet.

Finally, for the LP50, the dry fire method is by using a special clip (not delivered with the pistol) instead of just putting the cocking lever in the dry fire position as for the LP10 (I do not know how dry fire is provided for the FWB P56).

Apparently you have never fired the LP50. Firing it as a single shot using the single shot clip is no more difficult than loading a conventional single shot pistol. Upon firing, the single shot clip slides out of the breech exposing the chamber. The pellet is inserted into the chamber and the clip is pushed back into the gun. The clip is held captive in the breech so it cannot fall out, nor does it have to be removed from the gun for loading.

The dry fire clip came with my pistol. It is used for multishot dry firing with expulsion of gas. It is not needed for single shot dry firing which is easily accomplished without any clip by cocking the gun for each dry fire.

[Spencer]

...you are not allowed to use the 5 shot clip...?

8.4.3.1 The pistol may only be loaded with one (1) pellet.

Nothing about 5-shot clip

Spencer

[PaulT]

The advantage to the shooter of the single shot clip is operation and simplicity; it also obviates, for the shooter, the possibility of loading more than one round and thus incurring the attention of range staffs.

[David Levene]

The use of the single shot magazine also makes it one of the easiest pistols to load, at least for a right-handed shooter.

[jipe]

The advantage to the shooter of the single shot clip is operation and simplicity; it also obviates, for the shooter, the possibility of loading more than one round and thus incurring the attention of range staffs.

Indeed, most range staff feel unconfortable when seing people using 5 shots clip and ask to use single shot clip.

When I tried the LP50 (I do not own one) I didn't dare to push so the single clip back. I also didn't saw any meaning to dry fire like I have on my LP10 where it is done by simply not closing completely the cocking lever.

In Europe in the shops I know, the LP50 is not delivered standard with the single shot nor the dry shot clip, there are only two 5 shots clip provided.

It seems also that the speed/power of the LP50 is a little bit lower than the LP10, do not know why (to reduce recoil, but recoil is already very limited with the LP10, due to the semi-auto working ???). May be it is possible to set it up with the V0 screw as with the LP10 ?

[JulianY]

It seems also that the speed/power of the LP50 is a little bit lower than the LP10, do not know why (to reduce recoil, but recoil is already very limited with the LP10, due to the semi-auto working ???). May be it is possible to set it up with the V0 screw as with the LP10 ?

I dont know what the factory setting is for the lp60 but I do now that when they are tuned for 25m the power is turned up just under the UK limit of 6ft-lbs but the side effect is they they use up the cylinder much faster. paulT correct me hear but its around 60+ shots ?

Julian