Others have written warnings about the FAS .32 in this thread. Please, read the wriitng at the wall, "torontogunguy".
The 603 is old, it emerged in the early 80s. It newer gained much following.
David Leevene is, to my knowledge, one of very few promoting this gun. Remember David had a supporting teem to keep is guns working in his heydays.
I do own a FAS .32, an old one from mid 80s. Extended firing (60 rounds or more) from this pistol brings calamities...
-Ejection and feeding is unreliable. Due to design shortcomings.
-Hammer assembly will work loose during firing. Lock-titing-down does not help in the long run.
- Trigger sear will wear rapidly, and the trigger pull gets long and kind ov sliding feel. This can only be fixed by regrinding the edges, or replacing the hammer assembly. (The factory have not been able to supply a new hammer assembly to my pistol).
- Rubber-buffers wears out (two-legged fixing-clip breakes)
- the rearmost part of the frames have a tendency to break off, from a steady diet of mild factory fodder!
The FAS is outdated. Probably the worst .32 S&W used target pistol buy awailable. Which it is often not, due to broken pistols/frames.
My advice, stay away from this one.
Well, I have to admit, accuracy is ok. As with most .32 S&W target autos...
Cannot recomend the FAS .32
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I had a 603, and was very fond of it. I kept an eye on the recoil buffer, but, otherwise, had fairly trouble-free shooting. (Except for cutting my thumb on the magazine lips, when loading the magazines.) They are not very popular here in the US, but I suspect that is because we are mostly bullseye shooters, here. The 32L has problems at 50 yds, and the 603 is not well-suited to mounting an optical sight: It's not easy to adapt the 603 to bullseye.
On the other hand, the 603 is still in production after all these years, relatively unchanged. It can't be all that "bad," now, can it?
On the other hand, the 603 is still in production after all these years, relatively unchanged. It can't be all that "bad," now, can it?
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789
\amazed...
Well, if your FAS 603 is "up and running", may I ask: Do you fire your FAS only occasionally?
Does your hammer box work loose? If not, how did you fix that?
Is your trigger crisp? If it is, then again, how many rounds have your FAS digested?
Is your extractor still in place? If yes, then again, how many (few?) shots have you fired through the FAS?
Based on experiences from quite a few FAS .32s, belonging to myself (two), club members, and competetors, during more than two decades, I am very curious. Very curious indeed...
Does your hammer box work loose? If not, how did you fix that?
Is your trigger crisp? If it is, then again, how many rounds have your FAS digested?
Is your extractor still in place? If yes, then again, how many (few?) shots have you fired through the FAS?
Based on experiences from quite a few FAS .32s, belonging to myself (two), club members, and competetors, during more than two decades, I am very curious. Very curious indeed...
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: \amazed...
I posted the following on another thread in 2004:-789 wrote:Does your hammer box work loose? If not, how did you fix that?
"I realised within a very short time of buying the gun that the screw was a potential problem. Because of the domed head on the factory fitted screw you had to use a smaller sized Allen wrench to the one you would normally use on an M3 threaded screw. This meant that it was too easy to round off either the wrench or the screw socket head corners.
My solution was change the screw for a normal socket headed screw which allowed for a larger sized Allen wrench and consequently a higher tightening torque. The problem with this solution was that this style of screw head was too high and jammed the under-side of the slide. A few strokes with a good quality file reduced the height of the head sufficiently to give clearence.
I have installed these modified screws in the guns of all 603s used by members of the GB C/F pistol team for the last 19 years with no (so far as I can remember) "mid-match loosenings". A quick check/tweak of the screw is suggested whenever the receiver is removed."
I hope this helps.
If you are the sort of person who drives a car and never checks oil or tires, the FAS is probably not for you.
789, if your gun is that bad, you might just have a lemon. Which happens in any brand.
I'd hate to guess how many top-10 positions were taken at the Australian nationals over the past 20+ years with the 603. I would not be surprised to see it having a higher percentage than any others. I loved mine, and shot it heavily from 1995 to 2000. And recently bought another one, which I have little opportunity to shoot :-(
In answer to your points:
- Ejection and feeding unreliable due to design shortcomings? Sorry, but of all the faults of the 603 (and there are a few), this is the LEAST of its problems. We were agents for them in Australia and NZ for many years, and rarely saw any misfeeds, even with reloads. Of course it throws the empty brass every which way, so you meet a lot of people collecting your empties...
- It does need some maintenance, and you do need to check tightness of screws. David's solution for the hammer unit screw is exactly what we did, but it was still prudent to check before any major match.
I know David disagrees with me here, but I don't believe the design of the trigger lends itself to a crisp letoff. I think it was designed for a roll release, and that's one of the major things that makes it such a great shooter in the Rapid half.
- If you reground sears, did you (a) anneal them before grinding, then (b) re-harden them after regrinding? If not, the sears are probably ruined... if you grind through the hardening on ANY set of sears, they will wear rapidly.
- Rubber buffers are DESIGNED to wear out. They take the brunt of the recoil, followed by the front spring steel buffer (should you never replace it as it's supposed to be).
- As far as frames having a tendency to break, this is news to me. ONE batch was machined incorrectly at the factory, and these pistols were recalled. It might have involved 20 or 30 guns, total. Although I suppose if you wear out the rear buffer, then the front buffer, the back of the frame might eventually crack from repeated hammering of the slide on the frame, but I hardly think that's the fault of the pistol.
Like any old Italian motorcycle, the FAS needs constant attention to keep it reliable. If this is a daunting idea, then it's probably not the pistol you need.
789, if your gun is that bad, you might just have a lemon. Which happens in any brand.
I'd hate to guess how many top-10 positions were taken at the Australian nationals over the past 20+ years with the 603. I would not be surprised to see it having a higher percentage than any others. I loved mine, and shot it heavily from 1995 to 2000. And recently bought another one, which I have little opportunity to shoot :-(
In answer to your points:
- Ejection and feeding unreliable due to design shortcomings? Sorry, but of all the faults of the 603 (and there are a few), this is the LEAST of its problems. We were agents for them in Australia and NZ for many years, and rarely saw any misfeeds, even with reloads. Of course it throws the empty brass every which way, so you meet a lot of people collecting your empties...
- It does need some maintenance, and you do need to check tightness of screws. David's solution for the hammer unit screw is exactly what we did, but it was still prudent to check before any major match.
I know David disagrees with me here, but I don't believe the design of the trigger lends itself to a crisp letoff. I think it was designed for a roll release, and that's one of the major things that makes it such a great shooter in the Rapid half.
- If you reground sears, did you (a) anneal them before grinding, then (b) re-harden them after regrinding? If not, the sears are probably ruined... if you grind through the hardening on ANY set of sears, they will wear rapidly.
- Rubber buffers are DESIGNED to wear out. They take the brunt of the recoil, followed by the front spring steel buffer (should you never replace it as it's supposed to be).
- As far as frames having a tendency to break, this is news to me. ONE batch was machined incorrectly at the factory, and these pistols were recalled. It might have involved 20 or 30 guns, total. Although I suppose if you wear out the rear buffer, then the front buffer, the back of the frame might eventually crack from repeated hammering of the slide on the frame, but I hardly think that's the fault of the pistol.
Like any old Italian motorcycle, the FAS needs constant attention to keep it reliable. If this is a daunting idea, then it's probably not the pistol you need.
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789
Ugh, the FAS 603..
Thanks for your considerations, Warren. Glad to hear you and your companions have had better experiences the the FAS (all models) than "the shooting lot" in my country. And in our neighbouring country.
My gun have seen some mileage, yes. (My Walther GSP .32 has more "milege", though). Some rubber buffers have been replaced. (Wear out pretty rapidly, I would say. An ingeneering flaw.)
Designed to be a "roll trigger"?. Well, I guess it acquires that feel, due to engineering shortcomings. Who likes a creepe roll trigger for the slow fire half? Not me.
Was it designed to give a roll feel? Why then was it reasonably crisp for the first couple of thousand rounds?
Grinded the sears? Not me. Some duds did that in desperation, cause new parts were not available. The FAS factory has a reputation for not responding to any communication...
No experienced shooter tthat I know of is that kind of fool that he will atempth to use a grinded surfase of a sear, without surface rehardening. Does any such fool hover around your area? Not here.
The reason for the sluggish creepy feel of the FAS trigger can probably be adressed to insufficient/improper hardening or inferior materials of the parts in teh first place?
The extractor that gets lost steadily? Another engineering flaw.
Ejection relied on the magazine tops. Fire interruptions due to malfunction (misejectons) is a well known feature of FAS guns.
Broken frames? cracks initiates near the rear "stud" at the rearmost part of the frame. Is this unknown? Ask the factory how many frames they have replaces. They will probablly say "none2. If you ever get an answer. But the tru story is "many".
The loosening up of hammer box screw? Another ingineering flaw.
If the 603 was/is that good, why has it not taken any Worl Cahampionship gold medals lately? Just curious ....
I wonder, is there som hidden agenda here, to cover up for a gun that never got to be what it was supposed to be?
My gun have seen some mileage, yes. (My Walther GSP .32 has more "milege", though). Some rubber buffers have been replaced. (Wear out pretty rapidly, I would say. An ingeneering flaw.)
Designed to be a "roll trigger"?. Well, I guess it acquires that feel, due to engineering shortcomings. Who likes a creepe roll trigger for the slow fire half? Not me.
Was it designed to give a roll feel? Why then was it reasonably crisp for the first couple of thousand rounds?
Grinded the sears? Not me. Some duds did that in desperation, cause new parts were not available. The FAS factory has a reputation for not responding to any communication...
No experienced shooter tthat I know of is that kind of fool that he will atempth to use a grinded surfase of a sear, without surface rehardening. Does any such fool hover around your area? Not here.
The reason for the sluggish creepy feel of the FAS trigger can probably be adressed to insufficient/improper hardening or inferior materials of the parts in teh first place?
The extractor that gets lost steadily? Another engineering flaw.
Ejection relied on the magazine tops. Fire interruptions due to malfunction (misejectons) is a well known feature of FAS guns.
Broken frames? cracks initiates near the rear "stud" at the rearmost part of the frame. Is this unknown? Ask the factory how many frames they have replaces. They will probablly say "none2. If you ever get an answer. But the tru story is "many".
The loosening up of hammer box screw? Another ingineering flaw.
If the 603 was/is that good, why has it not taken any Worl Cahampionship gold medals lately? Just curious ....
I wonder, is there som hidden agenda here, to cover up for a gun that never got to be what it was supposed to be?
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Ugh, the FAS 603..
You seem to think that just because top shooters are no longer using the gun it cannot be any good. One of the main reason why top shooters drifted away from the FAS range was the lack of factory support after Gino (their Sales Manager) left them in the late '80s.789 wrote:If the 603 was/is that good, why has it not taken any Worl Cahampionship gold medals lately?
This is the reason why, in recent years, several members of the GBR C/F squad who needed new guns moved away from FAS. Unfortunately some of them moved to the Hammerlli SP20, a backward step as regards reliability and support. (Is there a secondhand market for cracked SP20 frames?).
I guess we have to agree to disagree on this, 789.
1. I like a roll trigger. Even for slow fire. Not everybody does. But you might notice that every major manufacturer has, over time, developed their trigger with the OPTION to give at least a little roll to the 2nd stage - with the possible exception of the FWB AW93 (but I'm unsure of that).
2. Yes, the factory has been hopeless for getting parts and spares for years now. When the buffers get old (even sitting around in a parts box), they don't last any time at all when fitted.
3. Lots of amateur and some professional gunsmiths have attempted stoning or even filing sears without proper preparation. From ignorance, not stupidity, I might add. Knowing the colors to heat to before allowing to cool slowly (to anneal) and before quenching (to harden) is an art that I don't think is often taught in many modern gunsmithing courses.
4. I'm really bemused by the lost extractor. Have never seen this to happen in a 603. Occasionally happens in the 22LR 602 or 607, and in fact a couple of our Australian shooters removed them because they thought they caused more feed problems, and the shells extracted fine without them.
5. Yes, ejection problems in the 22LR FASs are well known. Feed problems as well. Not something I ever saw or experienced with any 603.
6. Okay already, the screw they fit to the hammer unit is an "engineering flaw". An easy fix.
7. Broken frames, where you describe, exactly illustrates what happens when the rear buffer and clip, as well as the front buffer, have been compressed to the state that they no longer prevent the slide from bottoming out on the frame itself under recoil.
A hidden agenda? Are you serious? I like these pistols and think they point and shoot beautifully. I merely thought you were painting a rather bleak picture of a model, that with some TLC, can give years of faithful service.
But maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut. It won't break my heart if I'm the only FAS shooter on any C/F line in the future. I have never shot another pistol that performs as well - for my style of shooting.
1. I like a roll trigger. Even for slow fire. Not everybody does. But you might notice that every major manufacturer has, over time, developed their trigger with the OPTION to give at least a little roll to the 2nd stage - with the possible exception of the FWB AW93 (but I'm unsure of that).
2. Yes, the factory has been hopeless for getting parts and spares for years now. When the buffers get old (even sitting around in a parts box), they don't last any time at all when fitted.
3. Lots of amateur and some professional gunsmiths have attempted stoning or even filing sears without proper preparation. From ignorance, not stupidity, I might add. Knowing the colors to heat to before allowing to cool slowly (to anneal) and before quenching (to harden) is an art that I don't think is often taught in many modern gunsmithing courses.
4. I'm really bemused by the lost extractor. Have never seen this to happen in a 603. Occasionally happens in the 22LR 602 or 607, and in fact a couple of our Australian shooters removed them because they thought they caused more feed problems, and the shells extracted fine without them.
5. Yes, ejection problems in the 22LR FASs are well known. Feed problems as well. Not something I ever saw or experienced with any 603.
6. Okay already, the screw they fit to the hammer unit is an "engineering flaw". An easy fix.
7. Broken frames, where you describe, exactly illustrates what happens when the rear buffer and clip, as well as the front buffer, have been compressed to the state that they no longer prevent the slide from bottoming out on the frame itself under recoil.
A hidden agenda? Are you serious? I like these pistols and think they point and shoot beautifully. I merely thought you were painting a rather bleak picture of a model, that with some TLC, can give years of faithful service.
But maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut. It won't break my heart if I'm the only FAS shooter on any C/F line in the future. I have never shot another pistol that performs as well - for my style of shooting.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I had this happen to me once Warren. The only reason I knew something was wrong was that the pattern of ejected cases became random. It certainly didn't affect the reliability.Warren wrote:I'm really bemused by the lost extractor. Have never seen this to happen in a 603.
I have always thought it amusing that it is called an extractor anyway as, during normal use, it has nothing to do with extracting the fired case. It just imparts spin on the case once it hits the ejector part of the magazine. Still, I suppose you have got to call it something.
Gosh David, you must have had a special model ;-) Mine would throw cases to all points of the compass.
It's good to know that it ejected the empties without the extractor... I suspected that would have been the case, but as I said, I never had to shoot one without.
I remember losing an extractor in a borrowed Hammerli P240 way back in the early 80s, at a NZ Nationals. If you hald it with two hands, in a gorilla grip, the cases would extract and clear the breech. One-handed they jammed every time. Just shows how much of a shock absorber WE are when we shoot one-handed.
It's good to know that it ejected the empties without the extractor... I suspected that would have been the case, but as I said, I never had to shoot one without.
I remember losing an extractor in a borrowed Hammerli P240 way back in the early 80s, at a NZ Nationals. If you hald it with two hands, in a gorilla grip, the cases would extract and clear the breech. One-handed they jammed every time. Just shows how much of a shock absorber WE are when we shoot one-handed.
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789
The FAS .32
Thanks for your considerations, Warren. Glad to hear you enjoy firing your FAS .32.
We apparently live in two different worlds, Warren. In your world the FAS is a rlatively succesful gun, In my world it is not.
- Never had much ejection or feeding trouble with the FS .32? You have a very velmannered FAS .32 then, Warren.
- Never heard of any lost extractors? Let me put it this way: I have never heard of any FAS .32 that retained its original extractor for more years...
Yes, it ejects without the ectractor. but then cases are not rotated out to the right, and cases will, when they hit the tip of the magazine, ble tossed in all directions. And occasionaly, some case will not be tossed clear of the gun.
No feeding problems? I have met FAS shooters, that in dispair try all kinds of adjustments to the magazine lips to improve on feeding of the. FAS. Often to no avail.
FAS can be an enjoyable gun for informal shootign, but for serious matches it is too unreliable. Thas is my opinion.
My last post covering this topic.
We apparently live in two different worlds, Warren. In your world the FAS is a rlatively succesful gun, In my world it is not.
- Never had much ejection or feeding trouble with the FS .32? You have a very velmannered FAS .32 then, Warren.
- Never heard of any lost extractors? Let me put it this way: I have never heard of any FAS .32 that retained its original extractor for more years...
Yes, it ejects without the ectractor. but then cases are not rotated out to the right, and cases will, when they hit the tip of the magazine, ble tossed in all directions. And occasionaly, some case will not be tossed clear of the gun.
No feeding problems? I have met FAS shooters, that in dispair try all kinds of adjustments to the magazine lips to improve on feeding of the. FAS. Often to no avail.
FAS can be an enjoyable gun for informal shootign, but for serious matches it is too unreliable. Thas is my opinion.
My last post covering this topic.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
fas 32
don't know what your problem is, I bought a 602 first up, very happy, looking at a 603 to match it.
in that price range I have not used anything comparable. even at twice the price.
only times it has given trouble was my fault.
trigger exellent, grip shapes are huge, top loader means it hasn't got one of those short barrels.
some have said it is a bit heavy, but I like it!
anything better is radically more modern in design, and you have to pay for it in large amounts of folding stuff.
i plan to buy a S/H 602/603/lp 10, all for less than a new rapid gun, with some money left over to buy ammo to train with!
So 789? if you dislike your 603 so much, why don't you donate it to me, lets see if the problem is the gun or you?
in that price range I have not used anything comparable. even at twice the price.
only times it has given trouble was my fault.
trigger exellent, grip shapes are huge, top loader means it hasn't got one of those short barrels.
some have said it is a bit heavy, but I like it!
anything better is radically more modern in design, and you have to pay for it in large amounts of folding stuff.
i plan to buy a S/H 602/603/lp 10, all for less than a new rapid gun, with some money left over to buy ammo to train with!
So 789? if you dislike your 603 so much, why don't you donate it to me, lets see if the problem is the gun or you?
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Fortitudo Dei
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 pm
- Location: New Zealand
I'm with you Bryan.
The grip on my FAS 603 .32 suits my (large) hands really well and it was the one pistol out of my four ISSF pieces that hardly needed any modification. David L's suggestion of installing a proper hex-head bolt with the top filed down solved the problem of the hammer assembly working loose and wearing a rubber thimble-thingy (whatever they are called - from an office supplies shop - used for counting bills or sheets of paper...) on my thumb stops the magazine lips jabbing my skin when loading. Having been taught to shoot with one, I also love having a long creepy Euro-style trigger and find it so much easier to achieve an "unconscious" shot when I don't have a crisp break. I also appreciate its forgiveness and have lost count of the number of times I have fired a shot, then winced thinking a screw-up has resulted in an "8" - only to look through my spotting scope and discover it’s a clean 10. It's been very reliable over the c.10k rounds I have put through it over the past 2-3 years and Potter's Firearms in Australia have been great at supplying me with new buffers, springs and so on - all of which are relatively inexpensive. One problem is that it tends to chuck brass everywhere but that is no great issue as far as I’m concerned (this quirk of the 603 reminds me of the old adage regarding the inverse relationship of a culture's table manners to the quality of their cuisine - the more "refined" the table manners, the worse the food... and vice-versa).
It’s a great gun in my book.
The grip on my FAS 603 .32 suits my (large) hands really well and it was the one pistol out of my four ISSF pieces that hardly needed any modification. David L's suggestion of installing a proper hex-head bolt with the top filed down solved the problem of the hammer assembly working loose and wearing a rubber thimble-thingy (whatever they are called - from an office supplies shop - used for counting bills or sheets of paper...) on my thumb stops the magazine lips jabbing my skin when loading. Having been taught to shoot with one, I also love having a long creepy Euro-style trigger and find it so much easier to achieve an "unconscious" shot when I don't have a crisp break. I also appreciate its forgiveness and have lost count of the number of times I have fired a shot, then winced thinking a screw-up has resulted in an "8" - only to look through my spotting scope and discover it’s a clean 10. It's been very reliable over the c.10k rounds I have put through it over the past 2-3 years and Potter's Firearms in Australia have been great at supplying me with new buffers, springs and so on - all of which are relatively inexpensive. One problem is that it tends to chuck brass everywhere but that is no great issue as far as I’m concerned (this quirk of the 603 reminds me of the old adage regarding the inverse relationship of a culture's table manners to the quality of their cuisine - the more "refined" the table manners, the worse the food... and vice-versa).
It’s a great gun in my book.
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789
Well, eh yes..
Love that...Fortitudo Dei wrote: ... (this quirk of the 603 reminds me of the old adage regarding the inverse relationship of a culture's table manners to the quality of their cuisine - the more "refined" the table manners, the worse the food... and vice-versa).
Well, boys, I will, based on the FAS love-letters from Fortudio Dei (!) and others, consider an upgrade of my old FAS .32: A new hammer-box unit (where the heck do I get that for my old FAS?).
A can of "buffers an´ clips".
A filed down hex bolt for the hammer-box unit is to be installed too.
Let´s see if I can revitalize that old clunker..
Shooting roll triggers
I know you said you disliked shooting roll triggers in slow fire... here's something you can try to get way better results.
Instead of firing one shot at a time, commit to firing doubles, or even 3 shots in a string. A roll trigger will punish a stop-start-stop-start technique unmercifully. But if you commit to shooting at least two shots when you raise your arm, you will not have the time to dither about, and the positive release will give way better results.
Learned all this from some pretty awful shots in the old days when I was a baaaaaaaaad overholder.
Please keep us informed when you get it up and running again.
Instead of firing one shot at a time, commit to firing doubles, or even 3 shots in a string. A roll trigger will punish a stop-start-stop-start technique unmercifully. But if you commit to shooting at least two shots when you raise your arm, you will not have the time to dither about, and the positive release will give way better results.
Learned all this from some pretty awful shots in the old days when I was a baaaaaaaaad overholder.
Please keep us informed when you get it up and running again.