Ladies and Gentlemen,
Kindly please help me to locate any available information regarding the subject matter for AP and FP; given the same degree of shooter awareness (clothing/shoes isolation, hand-washing, etc.). Has anyone done any estimation on, say, the lead contimination from firing a round of .22 LR is equivalent to shooting so many shots of pellets? ETC., ETC.
Before I dare to include an indoor AP/FP range in my retirement home floor plan, I have to convince myself, and my wife, that such an endeavor will not endanger our very young grand children who will be visiting us quite often, hopefully.
I sincerely appreciate your time.
Paul Ha.
Relative lead contamination levels
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Paul,
How many shooters do you know that have ever got lead poisoning ? I have no idea what the levels of lead are but providing you don't let your grand children play with the old lead then they should be fine. If you really are worried then don't let them in the range area. But don't take the lead issue out of context, there are far more dangerous things in the outside world than lead.
Rob.
How many shooters do you know that have ever got lead poisoning ? I have no idea what the levels of lead are but providing you don't let your grand children play with the old lead then they should be fine. If you really are worried then don't let them in the range area. But don't take the lead issue out of context, there are far more dangerous things in the outside world than lead.
Rob.
Depending on how you define "lead poisoning" I know a bunch of shooters, including myself, who have elevated or dangerous blood lead levels, however that is from cartridge shooting indoors with poor venitlation. Simple practices (wash hands, wear filter mask) are bringing it down into the "safe" range for all of us that have been tested.RobStubbs wrote:Paul,
How many shooters do you know that have ever got lead poisoning ? I have no idea what the levels of lead are but providing you don't let your grand children play with the old lead then they should be fine. If you really are worried then don't let them in the range area. But don't take the lead issue out of context, there are far more dangerous things in the outside world than lead.
Rob.
BTW here in the US the levels are defined as Safe (<10 ug/dl), Elevated (10-30 ug/dl) and Dangerous (>30 ug/dl). Dangerous levels must be reported to state health service who may investigate to make sure you are not working in unsafe conditions. I have heard that above 50 ug/dl chelation therapy is recommended (don't ask me, I don't know but it is supposed to get the lead out so to speak).
For air guns, the only way you can get lead is ingesting it. Don't put your fingers in your mouth or on anything that touches you mouth (like a cigarette or the mouth of a water bottle). and wash your hands after shooting. For clean dry hands I don't think lead absorbsion through the skin is a concern.
If you are concerned, have your doctor do a blood test. They are fairly cheap (mine is about $50 I think and covered by insurance). When my lead levels came back elevated (29 ug/dl) he had to consult with a pediatrition because he had never seen a case and didn't know what it meant. The nurses advice was to "keep my guns clean when I am shooting":o It took about a year of good hygene to get it down into the mid teens, then I relaxed and didn't wear a mask all the time and it has stayed there.
Regards,
Steve Turner
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Richard Newman
Lead levels
Since you are apparently designing a home range in what will be new construction, if you are planning to shoot cartridge ammo as well as air, design in a ventilation system. THe NRA range constructioni folk have lots of info on such matters, and I am surethey will be happy to share it with you. If you never expect to shoot anything but air, then contact is the primary means of getting contaminated and ventilation may still be worthwhile if only for shooter comfort. I am not sure what zoning issues you may have where you intend to build, but check that out as well. IN some places a home range is illegal. It might result in your being refused an occupancy permit. CYA.
Richard Newman
Richard Newman
Interesting reading but scientifically meaningless. The 'experiments' are totally uncontrolled and their conclusions are based on assumptions not fact.Anonymous wrote:This is worth a look...
http://www.pistolnz.org.nz/ctipart01.asp
Like I said if you're worried about the kids then don't let them in the range. Additional ventillation can't do any harm though. I would add that my comments were and are only related to AP, FP is another ball game but I'd never consider having a home FP range.
Rob.
The levels given by SteveT for elevation are those for kids (who are much more susceptible to lead poisoning problems than adults).
OSHA suggests under 40ug/100g of blood as maximum without medical treatment (http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp ... p_id=10031).
My levels run from 26 in the Fall (before beginning of indoor season) to 44 in the Spring (at end of the season), however I'm in the range three to four nights per week while smallbore rifle and pistols are fired.
Without ingesting a pellet you would have lots of troble getting or levels up very high (as stated it is the gaseous lead from the priming compound that does most of the damage).
I take 1000 mg of vitamin C every day, and by Fall my levels have fallen. There is lots of info on the net regarding the ability of ascorbic acid to reduce high levels of heavy metals in the blood.
Not eating, drinking, or smoking in the range, and washing up following shooting goes a very long way in preventing any problems.
OSHA suggests under 40ug/100g of blood as maximum without medical treatment (http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp ... p_id=10031).
My levels run from 26 in the Fall (before beginning of indoor season) to 44 in the Spring (at end of the season), however I'm in the range three to four nights per week while smallbore rifle and pistols are fired.
Without ingesting a pellet you would have lots of troble getting or levels up very high (as stated it is the gaseous lead from the priming compound that does most of the damage).
I take 1000 mg of vitamin C every day, and by Fall my levels have fallen. There is lots of info on the net regarding the ability of ascorbic acid to reduce high levels of heavy metals in the blood.
Not eating, drinking, or smoking in the range, and washing up following shooting goes a very long way in preventing any problems.
Lead poisoning
Lead poisoning shouldnt'be taken lightly. Lead accumulates in your body, and has very long half life times. (half life as in excretion).
Even when shooting air, just take a white tissue and wipe your backstop, after a couple of shots: significant quantities of lead dust are set free.
That said, there is of course no reason to overreact either.
In Belgium the legislation, rules and regulations for shooting ranges prescribe a laminar flow ventilation in the direction of the target:
-If the shooter is moving (as in taking different positions), air velocity to be 2.0 m/s
-If the shooter is stationary, air velocity to be 0.2 m/s
Ventilation exit to be filtered in order to avoid spreading the lead dust in the environment.
I would think it is relatively simple and cheap to imply this if you're still designing the house...
Hope this helps,
Chris.
Even when shooting air, just take a white tissue and wipe your backstop, after a couple of shots: significant quantities of lead dust are set free.
That said, there is of course no reason to overreact either.
In Belgium the legislation, rules and regulations for shooting ranges prescribe a laminar flow ventilation in the direction of the target:
-If the shooter is moving (as in taking different positions), air velocity to be 2.0 m/s
-If the shooter is stationary, air velocity to be 0.2 m/s
Ventilation exit to be filtered in order to avoid spreading the lead dust in the environment.
I would think it is relatively simple and cheap to imply this if you're still designing the house...
Hope this helps,
Chris.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I appreciate everyone's time and input. Kindly please allow me to report on my personal bout with the subject matter.
Roughly a year and a half ago, I decided to get my left arm to shoot AP and FP as I did with my right some 25 years ago. Cutting back work to 3/4 time and sleeping at the range at night on week nights (my home is 210 miles away); I managed to shoot 3 sessions of 2+ hours each per day, 5 days/week, evenly divided between AP and FP.
About 9 months ago, during my annual physical, my requested blood lead level (bll) test came back to be at 68 which caused me to go through chelation treatment a couple of months later.
Not wanting to wear a filtration mask, while shooting, as prescribed; I decided to cut back on my beloved FP and shot mostly AP; even reducing that to 2 sessions per day.
I am happy to report that my bll is 29 as of yesterday.
Based on your input and follow-up information, I have decided to be happy with a 'restrictive' AP range; and, hopefully, a bunch of playful and HEALTHY Little People all over the rest of the house.
I thank you most sincerely for your time.
Paul Ha.
P.S. Please do not take lead contamination/poisoning lightly. Per the toxicologist who treated me, chelation, in the U.S., is reported to various goverment agencies; AND is, normally, administered ONCE PER PERSON PER LIFETIME. The 30 day supply of pills cost well over 1000USD. P.H.
I appreciate everyone's time and input. Kindly please allow me to report on my personal bout with the subject matter.
Roughly a year and a half ago, I decided to get my left arm to shoot AP and FP as I did with my right some 25 years ago. Cutting back work to 3/4 time and sleeping at the range at night on week nights (my home is 210 miles away); I managed to shoot 3 sessions of 2+ hours each per day, 5 days/week, evenly divided between AP and FP.
About 9 months ago, during my annual physical, my requested blood lead level (bll) test came back to be at 68 which caused me to go through chelation treatment a couple of months later.
Not wanting to wear a filtration mask, while shooting, as prescribed; I decided to cut back on my beloved FP and shot mostly AP; even reducing that to 2 sessions per day.
I am happy to report that my bll is 29 as of yesterday.
Based on your input and follow-up information, I have decided to be happy with a 'restrictive' AP range; and, hopefully, a bunch of playful and HEALTHY Little People all over the rest of the house.
I thank you most sincerely for your time.
Paul Ha.
P.S. Please do not take lead contamination/poisoning lightly. Per the toxicologist who treated me, chelation, in the U.S., is reported to various goverment agencies; AND is, normally, administered ONCE PER PERSON PER LIFETIME. The 30 day supply of pills cost well over 1000USD. P.H.
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raymond Odle
Lead is no more of a health risk than common table salt. We live in an industrial society.
Handle machinery, chemicals, toxic substances, sports equipment,recyclables(lead), etc. with respect and life goes on.
The lead we shoot is not the same as the gasoline lead additive which could penetrate the skin. Lead fumes quickly solidifies around dust particles. 95% air filters will clean the air.
It's the old suggestion. Use common sense.
Handle machinery, chemicals, toxic substances, sports equipment,recyclables(lead), etc. with respect and life goes on.
The lead we shoot is not the same as the gasoline lead additive which could penetrate the skin. Lead fumes quickly solidifies around dust particles. 95% air filters will clean the air.
It's the old suggestion. Use common sense.
When I was on the pistol team in college, we cleaned many hundreds of pounds of pulverized lead out of the backstop with our bare hands & no respirators. We were told to wash up carefully afterward, and that was it. I also shot about 500 rounds a week in an indoor range, but with decent ventilation. Someone got nervous about all of thsi, and had us all tested. My lead levels came out completely normal, as did the rest of the team.
Since then, I surpervised (and did a lot of the work) in cleaning the lead out of the range three times. This includes melting it out of clogged bullet traps with a torch and shoveling tons of pulverized lead. We did use respirators and protective gear. I've never had an elevated lead level.
My feeling is that the lead "menace" is way overblown. Simple precautions should be enough to keep lead levels to an acceptable level if you shoot in a properly ventilated range.
That said, I wouldn't recommend shooting any cartridge firearms in an open basement unless you've done a very careful job to have good ventilation and some way to contain the lead dust it generates. One approach is to have a tunnel that you fire in. It WILL accumualte lead dust & unburned powder, so you need to have some way to clean it occasionally. I believe the NRA had plans for such a range at one time.
Since then, I surpervised (and did a lot of the work) in cleaning the lead out of the range three times. This includes melting it out of clogged bullet traps with a torch and shoveling tons of pulverized lead. We did use respirators and protective gear. I've never had an elevated lead level.
My feeling is that the lead "menace" is way overblown. Simple precautions should be enough to keep lead levels to an acceptable level if you shoot in a properly ventilated range.
That said, I wouldn't recommend shooting any cartridge firearms in an open basement unless you've done a very careful job to have good ventilation and some way to contain the lead dust it generates. One approach is to have a tunnel that you fire in. It WILL accumualte lead dust & unburned powder, so you need to have some way to clean it occasionally. I believe the NRA had plans for such a range at one time.
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dhurt
a shooting friend of mine had to undergo many treatments to get his lead levels down from, "off the chart" highs. he shoots at a ventilated indoor range, and has cleaned the backstops. if any risk is involved, why can't alternate projectiles be within shooting sports regulation? perhaps the primer compound is the worse culprit?
p.s. i apologize for previously using capitals
p.s. i apologize for previously using capitals
That being said, I don't hesitate to shoot AP from my dining room into my living room. However, I'm not that aggressive - 30 rounds per session, usually three to four times per week. And shot into a duct seal pellet trap.
Naturally, I wash my hands after every shooting session.
If I were doing cartridge, I would want a proper ventilation system....and my dream house would have an indoor range specifically ventilated for black powder. Probably with an ventilator right above the pistol.
Naturally, I wash my hands after every shooting session.
If I were doing cartridge, I would want a proper ventilation system....and my dream house would have an indoor range specifically ventilated for black powder. Probably with an ventilator right above the pistol.
Here's an interesting side note:
In another life, I was a New York City policeman. Back in the late sixties, early seventies, our range officers were given blood tests for lead, and all, or most of them, came up with elevated levels. We were getting our ammo (Peters .38spl.) from Remington (DuPont), and asked them to see what they could do to bring the levels down. At that time, it was thought the lead was coming from the bullets, and DuPont made up a batch of Teflon coated bullets for us to try. As is our usual custom, these bullets were tried against bullet resistant glass, polycarbonates (Lexan), and Kevlar vests. They penetrated the Lexan more deeply than the uncoated bullets, but completely penetrated the Kevlar vests.
The New York Daily News got this information and decided to sensationalize it by dubbing the Teflon coated bullets "Cop Killer Bullets". It became a national story, with the anti-gun crowd using it to further their agenda, and Teflon coated bullets were made illegal to sell.
The strange part, and one that wasn’t publicized, was that these bullets were never available to the public, were only made and delivered to the NYPD for testing, and this testing was terminated when it was discovered that the lead contamination was caused by the lead styphnate primers.
Paul
In another life, I was a New York City policeman. Back in the late sixties, early seventies, our range officers were given blood tests for lead, and all, or most of them, came up with elevated levels. We were getting our ammo (Peters .38spl.) from Remington (DuPont), and asked them to see what they could do to bring the levels down. At that time, it was thought the lead was coming from the bullets, and DuPont made up a batch of Teflon coated bullets for us to try. As is our usual custom, these bullets were tried against bullet resistant glass, polycarbonates (Lexan), and Kevlar vests. They penetrated the Lexan more deeply than the uncoated bullets, but completely penetrated the Kevlar vests.
The New York Daily News got this information and decided to sensationalize it by dubbing the Teflon coated bullets "Cop Killer Bullets". It became a national story, with the anti-gun crowd using it to further their agenda, and Teflon coated bullets were made illegal to sell.
The strange part, and one that wasn’t publicized, was that these bullets were never available to the public, were only made and delivered to the NYPD for testing, and this testing was terminated when it was discovered that the lead contamination was caused by the lead styphnate primers.
Paul