Trigger finger position on Trigger

tleddy · Post by **tleddy** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:28 pm

There have been some posts on this topic, but there are some observations I would like to share and solicit comment.

I have been an iron sight shooter forever, only in NRA competition do I use a dot from time to time, depending on lighting conditions and my visual acuity that day. Now, while working at home on my dry fire video, I was using both iron and dot for evaluation and practice.

(This pretty long - don't get bored.)

I had long known what we all know, that trigger finger position is important,,,one can see when the finger is off position seriously in iron sights by the left or right "bounce" of the front sight. What I stated to see with the dot out there is what I will call "micro-bounce".

Perhaps it is my aging eyes, but I cannot see the micro-bounce with the irons. The micro-bounce is even subtle in the dot. I opine that the micro-bounce will cost about a half a scoring ring, perhaps more, at 25 meters.

So much for the long winded discussion...basically, trigger finger position needs to be adjusted precisely to avoid micro-bounce. I also determined that the issue becomes more important with increasing let-off weight of the trigger - probably not even a factor at free pistol weights, more so at Standard Pistol, and worse yet at NRA 45 cal with a 3.4 lb weight and Hard Ball with 4 lbs.

I am very interested in the opinon of forum participants, so please respond.

Tillman

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:59 am

Trigger finger position is important but I don't think that's the only possible reason for your 'micro bounce' as you call it. Any deviation on pulling the trigger suggests you are not pulling the trigger straight back. That can be grip problems, changing hand pressures through the shot, or just plain 'snatching' or poor trigger control.

And don't kid yourself it isn't a problem with free pistols, it applies equally to all guns. Many people suggest free pistol is the hardest to get the triggering right , and of course small errors at the gun end translate to big errors at the target end.

Rob.

tleddy · Post by **tleddy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:29 am

Rob-

Good point on moving the trigger.

Once establishing a "proper" trigger finger position, I can eleiminate the micro- issue. Perhaps it is the combination of proper placement and focus on moving the trigger as a result...chicken and egg question?

As to free pistol...indeed! My personal best target was a 97 the hard way - last shot a 7. My TOZ will put them all in one hole from a rest - but not me.

Tillman

I know this is an International forum, but have you ever tried the dot and noticed the phenomenon? tle

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:42 am

RobStubbs wrote:Any deviation on pulling the trigger suggests you are not pulling the trigger straight back. That can be grip problems, changing hand pressures through the shot, or just plain 'snatching' or poor trigger control.

Don't forget what is probably the second most common cause (after poor trigger control), incorrect trigger position. They are made to be adjustable backwards and forwards for a reason. Once they have been correctly positioned however it is a shame that they cannot be welded solid. If shooters can adjust something unnecessarily then they will ;-(

tleddy · Post by **tleddy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am

Another good point! I have all of my 1911 Colt frames set with short triggers and a trigger shoe - goal being to have identical trigger geometry on the calibers (22, 38 and 45).

I also have a 208s that does not seem to have front to rear adjustments - am I correct on this?

My Free Pistol (TOZ) adjusts every which way in every plane; I settled on that adjustment decades ago and have made no changes over 25 years. Still can't shoot so well :-)

Tillman

JulianY · Post by **JulianY** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:43 am

I suffered from something like this for months, jut could not figure out what it was. I could even see it on the rika. By chance talking to Harry Preston (steyr uk) solved the problem. For some reason the after shot travel on my trigger was to short and un known to me the trigger was kicking against it each shot.

Not saying I dont woble now , but it sure as hell smoothed it out a lot.

JY

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:35 pm

Alternate thought- you could just buy a gun with a trigger that doesn't have this problem in the first place . . .

Steve Swartz

rapid2 · Post by **rapid2** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:58 pm

Interesting thread!

When I looked at the movies at ISSF.TV, I noticed that most shooters put their finger further through the trigger guard than I do (or could, as I have small hands). It seems logical, as this way you can pull backwards without moving the gun (which is always nice), but they seem to pull the trigger with another part of the forefinger than I do. It seems to be close to the distal joint, where the finger is less sensitive.
Which part of the trigger finger do our esteemed friends use?

Cheers,

Bob

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:18 am

Bob,
It's probably just how it looks on video. The finger pad should be on the trigger i.e. the most sensitive bit of the finger. It works out slap bang in the middle of the whorls in the finger print, for almost all people.

Rob.

Albert B · Post by **Albert B** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:40 am

Why should the trigger vinger be positioned on "the finger pad ( i.e. the most sensitive bit of the finger)"? As smallbore and airrifle shooters we encounter the same problems. I have found tahat it is easier to position the trigger finger correctly (by feeling) when the righthand side of the trigger is immediately in front of the vinger joint. In my oppinion correct placement of the finger on the trigger and thereby executing the shot correct (keeping the sigts centered), is of more importance then the sensitivity of the vingerpart used.
Also, the sideway momentum exerted on the trigger is less when the 'armlength' is less - again when the trigger is immediately in front of the vinger joint.
A note: how about people doing rough work with there hands? It is very likely they have a lot of thick horny skin on their fingertops and are more sensitive on the part just forward of the finger joint.
Remember the trick the old cardplayers use to sharpen sensitivity of the vingers? Take a piece of sandpaper and sand down the outer skin of the fingertip.
Comments apreciated.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:11 am

Albert,
It's extremely easy to locate your finger in exactly the right place using the finger pad, because it's most sensitive you can easily feel its location. If as you suggest you go next to the joint, you will likely have uneven pressure application and of course less sensitivity.

I also fail to understand how you think a very sensitive operation (pulling a trigger) can be best acheived using a less sensitive part of the finger. To get the best possible trigger operation you need the fine control and sensitivity. I don't believe you can acheive that with other parts of the finger.

It's also worth noting that no one advocates the bit of finger that you suggest. Have a look at any shooting book or reference material and the advice will be the same.

Rob.

Albert B · Post by **Albert B** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:42 am

Rob, If it is so easy to place the finger, then why are there so many different accessoires to position the finger on the trigger? (see MEC and Anschutz). Also you might not have noticed my comment about people doing rough work vith their hands (bricklayers, roadworkers etc.) They usually have less feeling in their fingertips.
When correctly executed, pulling a trigger is a conditioned exercise that needs not much feeling exept for the pressure applied. It is like the baseball player swinging hus bat at the right moment and with the right speed without ever seeing the bat and only looking at the ball, curving in 2 diections. The aiming and trggerrelease process works the same way. We see and time the movement of the target and sights without ever seeing the trigger, applying enough force at the right time so when target and sights are in perfect allignment the shot breaks.
If you are conciously reacting to the feeling of pressure, and the movement of the pistol/rifle you are always reacting 2/10th of a second to late (proven by SCATT by many international shooter and teams) - you are running behind the wagon.
Also the momentum of the sideforce, as a result of incorrect trigger squeeze, is less because of the smaller 'armlength' (the rotating point is in the point between the 2nd and 3rd fingerpart) using my discribed method. - M=FxA
I may be wrong but I think this method is also mentioned in Ways of the Rifle.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:09 am

Albert B wrote:Rob,
Also the momentum of the sideforce, as a result of incorrect trigger squeeze, is less because of the smaller 'armlength' (the rotating point is in the point between the 2nd and 3rd fingerpart) using my discribed method. - M=FxA
I may be wrong but I think this method is also mentioned in Ways of the Rifle.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

If you mean the rotating point is the distal joint, you're wrong. Although the part that should press the trigger is the pad between the distal joint and the tip of the finger, and the distal joint is bent, the majority of the flexing is at the proximal joint.

It's my understanding, and the basis of my method of determining the proper trigger position, that the finger tip should move back parallel to the axis of the barrel, to maintain sight alignment through the trigger pull. This is at about the half way point of the bending of the finger, as can be easily seen by looking down on your finger, as you bend it, with the hand positioned as if holding a pistol, and is more important than the relative sensativity of various parts of the finger.

Paul

Albert B · Post by **Albert B** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:23 am

Sorry, my english is not good enough to understand the 'medical' terms you described - distal joint & proximal joint; btw: triggrforce parallel to the axis of the barrel, but at the let-off point - not before the slack has been taken away.

Albert B

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:51 am

pgfaini wrote:It's my understanding, and the basis of my method of determining the proper trigger position, that the finger tip should move back parallel to the axis of the barrel, to maintain sight alignment through the trigger pull.

I think you mean perpendicular to the axis of the barrel and, as Albert mentioned, that is at the let off point.

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:22 pm

Albert, I was trying to determine if you meant the joint at the finger tip(distal), or the middle joint(proximal). Most bending is at the middle joint.

David, The finger tip is usually perpendicular, but the direction of movement (vector), of the point contacting the trigger, must be parallel to the axis of the bore, if side forces are to be avoided. It's possible to move your finger off-axis while keeping it perpendicular, by bending it at the metacarpal joint(where the finger meets the palm), instead of the proximal joint. This would be toward the left for a right handed shooter.
Paul

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:00 pm

pgfaini wrote:...... but the direction of movement (vector), of the point contacting the trigger, must be parallel to the axis of the bore, if side forces are to be avoided.

I know what you mean Paul but you have got me thinking (and yes it does hurt).

Do we actually want the movement at the let-off point to be parallel to the axis of the bore.

If we take an extreme example, purely for demonstration, of the trigger being 6" to the left of the barrel. The way I see it, even if the movement was parallel to the axis, this would create a twisting action of the pistol. This would obviously be much reduced in "real-life" but don't we actually want the trigger to move towards the pivot point of the barrel i.e. not parallel to the axis.

I hope this makes sense. If not, blame it on the very nice Bordeaux I just had with dinner.

pgfaini · Post by **pgfaini** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:43 pm

David, It makes perfect sense, even without the Bordeaux (The sun isn't yet over the yard-arm in this part of the world). Your example isn't so far fetched, vertical error probably being caused in part, by the distance below the bore, that the trigger is. The perfect movement, would be co-axially, but this isn't possible with the trigger mechanism below the bore line, but some newer pistols have significantly reduced the distance, and I wouldn't be surprised, to some day see the trigger directly behind the bore.

Winchester made a .22 single shot rifle with a "thumb trigger", a button that was directly behind the bolt, for people that were missing their index finger. It was also reputed to reduce flinching. Do the ISSF rules require that the trigger be activated with a finger? How about a button on the thumb rest?
And I haven't even popped the cork yet. Must be the 75ºf weather we're having!:>)
Regards, Paul

ChrisL · Post by **ChrisL** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:55 pm

Hmmm,

Interesting thread.

A while ago I started to operate the trigger with the tip of my finger, approximately squarely under the fingernail.

Combined wih a slightly more forward position of the trigger blade, jerking was reduced (but not gone - still a lot of practising needed).

Any others out there doing it so?

Chris.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:24 pm

pgfaini wrote:Do the ISSF rules require that the trigger be activated with a finger? How about a button on the thumb rest?

Rule 8.4.2.4.2 says "the trigger is operated by the hand that holds the pistol".

How a thumb button would handle the trigger weight measurement procedure of rule 8.4.2.6 I'm not too sure ;-)

TargetTalk

Trigger finger position on Trigger

Trigger finger position on Trigger

Trigger

Adjustable trigger length

finger

Position of trigger finger