Strange Scoring procedure in an Duch Open AP Match.

[JulianY]

I failed to find anything in the rules about this, probably because of the one shot per card rule for 10m AP but I shot in an “open” yesterday and we had a strange event. Before the start of the match we were asked if we wanted 2 shot or 5 shots per card, most people picked 5. During the match one shooter finished earlier that I did, left the range and handed in his cards. About 10 minutes later he returned with two cards and took 3 more shots. Afterwards when I spoke to him, he told me that the scorers had returned his cards to him because 1 card was missing 1 shot and another 2 shots and asked him to take the additional 3 shots. Now this guy was in the habit of taking 5 pellets out of the tin, laying them on a cloth and then shooting them. He claimed that they that the missing shots had gone through the same holes. But the choice he was given was lose 30 points or take 3 more shots – I know what I would do given the choice!

It seems unlikely that he missed the target because nearly all his other shots were in the black, on the other hand to have 3 shot go though the same holes and twice on one car seems equally un likely. I guess he could have knocked the pellets on the floor and not noticed!

The targets were electronically scored, I don’t know how good these machines are at detecting “double holes” ?

When we talked, we booth agreed that next time we would take the 2 shots per card option.

Personally, I don’t think he should have been returned to the range. The choice should have been either to award zeros, or if they believe the shots were fired and can’t tell to award the lowest or lowest 2 scores twice. Any Judges out there got an opinion?

Julian

[David Levene]

Julian

That's the peril of not sticking to the ISSF rules, there's no clear procedure for resolving these situations.

In my limited experience of scoring machines they are not good at finding doubles.

I find that the best non-destructive way of finding doubles is to use a x30 microscope (yes, I do carry one in my scoring kit). If 2 have gone through the same hole then it will have far fewer loose fibres at the edge.

As a last resort the taper gauges that the ISSF started to sell last year are brilliant but, of course, you can only use them once in each hole.

[JulianY]

Julian

As a last resort the taper gauges that the ISSF started to sell last year are brilliant but, of course, you can only use them once in each hole.

How do they work ?

How would this be resolved for center fire which uses the same target ?

JY

[Albert B]

Julian,
having read your comments and beeing a member of the club mentioned, I can assure you that this was not in accordance with ISSF rules. The scoring machines often have difficulty reading double shots/holes and the cards are then scored by hand using a gauge. This also happens when fibres of the card stick to the black of the target. The machine reads the white fibre on the bull as a too small hole and gives a error/warning signal.

As this was not an official district- or national championship, I guess the organisers tried to be as lenient as possible to the participants. Many shooters are of a very low level. Perhaps if this shooter had finisched in the top places a more strict procedure would have been followed.
Personally, I would not have given him the benefit of doubt, because it is rule/custom to warn the range officer immideately when problems occur.
As you mentioned in your email to me, the range offices was so kind to read the rules in both Dutch and English. He mentioned the rule notifying the range officer immediately" so the shooter made the mistake.

ALbert B
The Netherlands

[JulianY]

Julian,
having read your comments and beeing a member of the club mentioned, I can assure you that this was not in accordance with ISSF rules. The scoring machines often have difficulty reading double shots/holes and the cards are then scored by hand using a gauge. This also happens when fibres of the card stick to the black of the target. The machine reads the white fibre on the bull as a too small hole and gives a error/warning signal.

As this was not an official district- or national championship, I guess the organisers tried to be as lenient as possible to the participants. Many shooters are of a very low level. Perhaps if this shooter had finisched in the top places a more strict procedure would have been followed.
Personally, I would not have given him the benefit of doubt, because it is rule/custom to warn the range officer immideately when problems occur.
As you mentioned in your email to me, the range offices was so kind to read the rules in both Dutch and English. He mentioned the rule notifying the range officer immediately" so the shooter made the mistake.

ALbert B
The Netherlands

Albert,

Let me also say, that my posting it hear, was not a complaint in any form against the club, organizers, or the shooter concerned ( I omitted all names because of this). Had i wanted to take it too seriously I would have been in my right to complane at the event, I chose not to. I was primarily interested in what the correct procedure should have been. I am defiantly looking forward to the next match at the club, I enjoyed the (w)hole event.

As you say the organizers were very friendly and as helpfully as could be. I certainly have learnt from the experience and If a double hit ever happens I will be notifying the Jury/Range Officer immediately.

Julian

[Albert B]

Julian, ISSF and national rules state that a fee must be paid when filing a protest. My experience is that in most cases (with the exemption of a national championship perhaps) most times no fee is asked for.
Custom here is that when you detect a double shot/one hole or a crossfire:
raise your hand and in the case of a doble shot the range officer will make a note on the card; in case of a crossfire he will try to detect who made the crossfire and will make a note on the cards for the scoring office.

Here is "bending/using the rules to your advantage".
When you are running out of time and still have to do more then 3 shots: When shooting 1 shot/target it is allowed (ISSF rule) to shoot 2 shots on 1 target twice without deduction of points. You can do this with your last 4 shots to save the time used for the target runners traveling up and down and changing your targets.
(something I was taught by a member of the Dutch national team)

ALbert B.

[deleted1]

I think the organizers realizing the "deficiency" within the machine to score "doubles", bent over backwards to please. Let's just say that they were at this time "in the shooter's advantage" and let it go at that. Doubles are a real problem with the wad cutter pellets, that's why the "one shot per target" is the "smarter" way to go. We were discussing here, re: scoring .32 wad cutters, let alone looking for doubles---which can be a real source of argumentation in CF matches.

[David Levene]

How do they work ?

How would this be resolved for center fire which uses the same target ?

They are simply a shallow tapered plug with a series of coloured dots running along the length. They are available in 2 sizes, 1 covering .177 and .22 and the other covering CF pistol. They have the facility for tying a thread through the top to enablethe gauge to be lowered into the hole without excessive pressure.

I didn't believe how good they are until it was demonstrated to me. We had an AP target where we knew that the first 2 shots had gone through the same hole although you couldn't tell visually (I didn't try with the microscope). Several other shots were fired at the target. When the gauge was lowered into each of the "singles" it went in to the same coloured dot. When it was lowered into the "double" it went in an extra 3 dots.

Multiple shots have always been a problem in the cartridge pistol events. You have to use every tool available to you. In order, I would use:-
Visual, bare eye
Visual, magnifying glass
Visual, overlay film, with and without a magnifying glass
Microscope to check the paper threads at the hole edge
Taper gauge

If these methods do not convince me that there is a double then I have no option but to call a miss. If one of the other Jury members is equally unconvinced then that is the way it is scored.

The problems get more difficult in the Rapid stages of the 30+30 matches where you have patched targets. At the end of the 3rd series to count you will have had a total of 20 shots fired at the target. If the shooter is shooting tight groups it is not unusual for a "lump" of patches to be blown straight through the middle of the target. While the rules allow for single patches falling off, they do not allow for the fist sized hole that you can get. IMHO you have no option but to replace the target and annul the series for that shooter.

[Guest]

They are simply a shallow tapered plug with a series of coloured dots running along the length. They are available in 2 sizes, 1 covering .177 and .22 and the other covering CF pistol. They have the facility for tying a thread through the top to enablethe gauge to be lowered into the hole without excessive pressure.

This sounds like a very handy gadget. Does anyone know where I can purchase one in the USA?

Thanks!

[JulianY]

They are simply a shallow tapered plug with a series of coloured dots running along the length. They are available in 2 sizes, 1 covering .177 and .22 and the other covering CF pistol. They have the facility for tying a thread through the top to enablethe gauge to be lowered into the hole without excessive pressure.

This sounds like a very handy gadget. Does anyone know where I can purchase one in the USA?

Thanks!

Can say in the US but the ISSF shop have them and I am sure they would ship to the US;

https://www.issf-sports.org/issfshop/

Julian