After a few matches I have come to question the wisdom of the Clear Bore Indicators. I do like the idea of having a device that shows that the bore is clear, it's a safety thing. But it seems they may be creating more safety problems in the process.
For example:
The CBI needs to be taken out during trigger pull testing. I have peronally seen both kids, adult instructors and match officals look right down the barrel to reinsert the CBI or point the muzzle in unsafe directions.
Next, I hate shoving something down the barrel of a percision instrument. It leaves dirt, plastic shavings in what should be the shooters cleanest part of the gun. We tell them not to use pellets that have fallen on the floor because it might get dirt in the barrel or chamber. But then tell them to insert over and over this palstic string.
Lastly, they simply fall out. This leads to all sorts of unsafe mayhem as the shooter tries to replace the thing.
There is way to much finddling with the gun over something easily solved by other devices. Why not use a GEHMAN BREECH PLUG WITH SAFETY FLAG or similar device. Again I like the idea just not the current solution.
Can anyone suggest a better solution or maybe a different procedure which makes the plastic srting easier to deal with?
CBI for CMP
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
If your talking air rifle then an open breech is safe enough; you can a) see there is no pellet and b) even there was it couldn't be fired whilst open. ISSF rules don't require a CBI as you describe although with my free pistol I always use a breech flag, they are perfect for the job. I would suggest you swap to them unless something in your rules make the type of CBI's you use mandatory.
Rob.
Rob.
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GL
CBI for CMP
The CMP rule require the CBI's for 3-P air rifle. I'm sure they meant well but in my short experiance it's not working well. Maybe the string was a quick and inexpensive way to do it. But I'm with you I like the bore flag type of devices. They indicate a clear bore without the problems of the string.
One of the "incidents" that prompted the use of the CBI was a pellet lodged partially down the barrel. It could not/was not seen ... the rifle was cocked and "dry fired" in an unsafe direction with a bad result.
The CBI is used in air rifles to indicate the WHOLE barrel is clear and safe.
(I use short ones for pistols as well)
A breech flag is OK for a cartridge firearm.
1) Why would it fall out? Put a loop at the breech end.
2) Keep it clean .... don't let the kids just toss it on the floor .... put it on a mat or in their back pocket.
I've used CBI's in my program for 3 years now, and have no issues with them. It makes it much easier to see if the line is safe.
Just like any safety program it is received by the shooters (kids in this case) no better than it is presented by the coach/instructor.
If you are in the US and shooting NRA & CMP events .... get used to it and promote them well as I don't think they will go away. Your shooter can get thrown off the line for a safety violation ... the rules say these are mandatory. My shooters don't even think about it anymore ... it is habit, and they are sometimes better than me and won't cross the firing line until they check all the guns.
The CBI is used in air rifles to indicate the WHOLE barrel is clear and safe.
(I use short ones for pistols as well)
A breech flag is OK for a cartridge firearm.
1) Why would it fall out? Put a loop at the breech end.
2) Keep it clean .... don't let the kids just toss it on the floor .... put it on a mat or in their back pocket.
I've used CBI's in my program for 3 years now, and have no issues with them. It makes it much easier to see if the line is safe.
Just like any safety program it is received by the shooters (kids in this case) no better than it is presented by the coach/instructor.
If you are in the US and shooting NRA & CMP events .... get used to it and promote them well as I don't think they will go away. Your shooter can get thrown off the line for a safety violation ... the rules say these are mandatory. My shooters don't even think about it anymore ... it is habit, and they are sometimes better than me and won't cross the firing line until they check all the guns.
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WRC
GL - it sounds like you are using the same stiff weed-whacker cords that I am, and I also do not like them. For the same reasons you state. Even IF you roll them up to place them somewhere, they WILL unroll! I guess we chose too thick string! (but meant well!)
I can well understand WHY they are used, but at the same time, have to admit that if you follow all the other safety rules we already have, the CBI ought to be moot!
In the same vein, the Chamber Flags (the yellow hard plastic things) for smallbore that the CMP sells (well, practically gives away) are the world's worst. They don't stay in the chamber if you move the rifle, and people have resorted to closing the bolt down on them to keep them in place. Of course, violating a major safety rule in the process. A glaring example of "meant well" but impractical in real use.
I can well understand WHY they are used, but at the same time, have to admit that if you follow all the other safety rules we already have, the CBI ought to be moot!
In the same vein, the Chamber Flags (the yellow hard plastic things) for smallbore that the CMP sells (well, practically gives away) are the world's worst. They don't stay in the chamber if you move the rifle, and people have resorted to closing the bolt down on them to keep them in place. Of course, violating a major safety rule in the process. A glaring example of "meant well" but impractical in real use.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest as I'm not affected by it but is it not required here in the UK or by the ISSF world wide. To make another rule to cover for 3 major breaches of safety doesn't make sense, using that approach where does it end ?jhmartin wrote:One of the "incidents" that prompted the use of the CBI was a pellet lodged partially down the barrel. It could not/was not seen ... the rifle was cocked and "dry fired" in an unsafe direction with a bad result.
Also if the gun is left open or has a breach flag in it is is irrelevant what's up the barrel as it can't go anwhere. When the gun is closed it will always be pointing down range in a safe direction so if fired no harm will be done.
Rob.
Seat belts, airbags, warning tags on ladders, safety caps on aspirin.
Some things have a life of their own ....
Unfortunately, complacency is what causes most of the incidents (note the word I am NOT using....) I'll agree.
The issue came down to "Fix this so it's damn impossible for it to happen again, or shut down the programs".
I'm the first to admit that at major matches ... BECAUSE a rifle has a CBI ... there are times I've seen this leads to unsafe handling. Again, these incidents are dealt with quickly and loudly.
If everyone followed all the rules, sure it would be unnecessary, but some people will still run with sissors.... or drive 76 in a 75 zone. :-o
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Note: I use .090 ROUND orange weed-wacker cord .... not the square or "star" stuff. Sporter kids have back pockets on their jeans and precision shooter have jacket pockets.
Also .... I use the same thing ... only about 9" long for an ECI on the smallbores .... MUCH better than the yellow flag deals
Some things have a life of their own ....
Unfortunately, complacency is what causes most of the incidents (note the word I am NOT using....) I'll agree.
The issue came down to "Fix this so it's damn impossible for it to happen again, or shut down the programs".
I'm the first to admit that at major matches ... BECAUSE a rifle has a CBI ... there are times I've seen this leads to unsafe handling. Again, these incidents are dealt with quickly and loudly.
If everyone followed all the rules, sure it would be unnecessary, but some people will still run with sissors.... or drive 76 in a 75 zone. :-o
===
Note: I use .090 ROUND orange weed-wacker cord .... not the square or "star" stuff. Sporter kids have back pockets on their jeans and precision shooter have jacket pockets.
Also .... I use the same thing ... only about 9" long for an ECI on the smallbores .... MUCH better than the yellow flag deals
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GL
CBI for CMP
I agree with JH that the incidents need to be handled. I agree that the cords do allow for quick verification that the barrel and the bore are clear. And the cord is "a" solution to the problem. Though Mr Stubbs is absolutly correct in that when the action is open it doesn't matter what's in the barrel ain't nothin going to happen.
Therefore, it would seem to me that anything which keeps the actions from closing, doesn't fall out and can be easily seen would be a "better" solution not just "a" solution.
Here again I might suggest that one investigate the Gehman Breech Plug w/Saftey Flag. I am not in love with the color (a somewhat dark red), but one would think that a brighter color could be made. Also I know that Walther has a similar item. And I am sure there are others.
Therefore, it would seem to me that anything which keeps the actions from closing, doesn't fall out and can be easily seen would be a "better" solution not just "a" solution.
Here again I might suggest that one investigate the Gehman Breech Plug w/Saftey Flag. I am not in love with the color (a somewhat dark red), but one would think that a brighter color could be made. Also I know that Walther has a similar item. And I am sure there are others.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I learned shooting and reloading from a Benchrest shooter. Based on that beginning, I cringe every time I see anything except a round or a clean high quality cleaning rod going into a barrel. Yes, I know it's safer, in most cases it's also damaging the barrel. Cleaning rods are always gritty enough, plastic always picks up something.
Going to the gun show this weekend, and already anticipating seeing all of those guys carrying a Remington Varmit rifle that they want $800 for. They're carrying it on a sling with a dowel rod down the barrel holding the sign with the price.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
I learned shooting and reloading from a Benchrest shooter. Based on that beginning, I cringe every time I see anything except a round or a clean high quality cleaning rod going into a barrel. Yes, I know it's safer, in most cases it's also damaging the barrel. Cleaning rods are always gritty enough, plastic always picks up something.
Going to the gun show this weekend, and already anticipating seeing all of those guys carrying a Remington Varmit rifle that they want $800 for. They're carrying it on a sling with a dowel rod down the barrel holding the sign with the price.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS