which .22lr std pistol is MOST reliable - no more alibis!!!
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guest
reliability (or lack of same) of .22 match autos
Hi, chico of 1911
I am only half that old. But I have spent many, many years (decades) at the shooting ranges. As competitor and range officer. And I have seen a lot of malfunctions. There are malfunctions at just about every match. Some brands and models are less reliable than others.
To make a fair reliability ranking list is not easy. And you have to observe many issues of the different models for a long time. Not just one single specimen, for a brief (5000 round) period.
5000 rounds through a .22 auto is not very much. But you have got a good SP 20, chico, that is for sure. Not all SPs 20 are that good. The Pardini SP 20 have only earned a moderate repatation for reliability, I think.
In my club there are two new Pardini SP in .22 caliber. There have been some feeding problems with both. We hope that testing of different ammo brands will improve on that.
I am only half that old. But I have spent many, many years (decades) at the shooting ranges. As competitor and range officer. And I have seen a lot of malfunctions. There are malfunctions at just about every match. Some brands and models are less reliable than others.
To make a fair reliability ranking list is not easy. And you have to observe many issues of the different models for a long time. Not just one single specimen, for a brief (5000 round) period.
5000 rounds through a .22 auto is not very much. But you have got a good SP 20, chico, that is for sure. Not all SPs 20 are that good. The Pardini SP 20 have only earned a moderate repatation for reliability, I think.
In my club there are two new Pardini SP in .22 caliber. There have been some feeding problems with both. We hope that testing of different ammo brands will improve on that.
Dear "Guest"
I didn't mean to say that 5000 rounds was the end all of reliability I was just sharing our experiences. At our club we have about 8 or 9 Pardinis, 5 of which belong to myself and a group of friends. I supply the ammo for them, I did the testing then we order ammo as a group. All told we have gone through approximately 25,000 trouble free rounds. That can't be said of the others, they of course think you can run down to Wal-Mart or the Local Sporting Goods store and grab some ammo on the way to the match. Maybe they should grab some cleaning supplies while they are there.
I agree that that are malfunctions at every match, I see that too. However, while working the line I find that many problems are caused by lack of maintenance or poor ammo selection/testing. I'm surprised how many people spend their hard earned $'s on nice guns but then feed it "crap" ammo and won't spend a little time on cleaning. This also seems to carry over to the other shooting sports I shoot.
Again, I'm just a rookie to this type of shooting. In all the types of shooting I do, I have put about 20,000 rounds down range in 2004. I know there are some who shot many more. While working as a range officer at many different ranges, most problems I see are ammo and maintenance.
I will be happy to share our experiences as to which ammo worked best for us.
Take care,
Brian
I didn't mean to say that 5000 rounds was the end all of reliability I was just sharing our experiences. At our club we have about 8 or 9 Pardinis, 5 of which belong to myself and a group of friends. I supply the ammo for them, I did the testing then we order ammo as a group. All told we have gone through approximately 25,000 trouble free rounds. That can't be said of the others, they of course think you can run down to Wal-Mart or the Local Sporting Goods store and grab some ammo on the way to the match. Maybe they should grab some cleaning supplies while they are there.
I agree that that are malfunctions at every match, I see that too. However, while working the line I find that many problems are caused by lack of maintenance or poor ammo selection/testing. I'm surprised how many people spend their hard earned $'s on nice guns but then feed it "crap" ammo and won't spend a little time on cleaning. This also seems to carry over to the other shooting sports I shoot.
Again, I'm just a rookie to this type of shooting. In all the types of shooting I do, I have put about 20,000 rounds down range in 2004. I know there are some who shot many more. While working as a range officer at many different ranges, most problems I see are ammo and maintenance.
I will be happy to share our experiences as to which ammo worked best for us.
Take care,
Brian
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Dave from Coraopolis
22 pistol reliability
I have a 40 year old Giles High Standard that has, with the Giles magazines, never malfunctioned. Assuming good maintenance, magazines and ammo, my High Standards were outstanding. I have had as many as 3 Hammerli 208 s models and these are the best modern 22 for reliability. I also have a S&W 41 that ranks up there with the Hammerlis, but it's an older, (pre A) model.
If I had to buy one today, I'd find a good Hammerli 208S.
If I had to buy one today, I'd find a good Hammerli 208S.
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Guest
My Hämmerli 280 (newer model with plastic grip) has had about 10,000rds fed through it. It has jammed once. The previous owner (once ranked 8'th in Sweden) said he had 2-3 jams during the 7 years he owned it and I can't even imagine how many rounds he put through it.
All in all I am very found of Hämmerli's range of target pistols, except for those "X-esse" crapguns that constantly missfeed, klick, jam and spit shells in the head of the unfortunate shooter to your right.
A lot of people here in Sweden use Hämmerli.
All in all I am very found of Hämmerli's range of target pistols, except for those "X-esse" crapguns that constantly missfeed, klick, jam and spit shells in the head of the unfortunate shooter to your right.
A lot of people here in Sweden use Hämmerli.
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Guestzzz
But which is the most use sport pistol?
Thanks for all the inputs. However, does anyone know which sport pistol is use by world class shooters? Including the rapid fire pistol shooters?
Best 22
You need to define your intended course of fire before you select a 22. If you will be shooting at 50 yards I would not buy a Walther because it is intended for 25 meter shooting and MAY not be accurate enough for 50 yards. If you will be shooting with a red dot at all, some of the pistols mentioned may pose unique problems in mounting a red dot (walther, Pardini, possibly FSW but I am not familar with it). I vote for the Hammerli 208S:
1. VERY reliable
2. VERY VERY accurate at 50 yards
3. the magazine is not in front of the trigger guard so you can avoid some of those stupid assault weapon laws
4. very easy to put a red dot on with a Knapp mount, remove it for International/iron sight use, put the Knapp back on and the pistol returns to zero
5. good source of parts from Larry
6. good repair sercie from Larry with turnaround time 6 weeks or so
1. VERY reliable
2. VERY VERY accurate at 50 yards
3. the magazine is not in front of the trigger guard so you can avoid some of those stupid assault weapon laws
4. very easy to put a red dot on with a Knapp mount, remove it for International/iron sight use, put the Knapp back on and the pistol returns to zero
5. good source of parts from Larry
6. good repair sercie from Larry with turnaround time 6 weeks or so
My 280 has yet to fail. I've put a lot (A LOT!) of rounds through it and it just keeps on going. It's also extremely accurate and well balanced. This summer it gave me a "perfect" 495/500 score on a local club match with 50 shots of 25m precision. This is a pistol I truly trust! It always works and it always delivers.
I have a Pardini SP that has a case or two of ammo through it (RWS target), and I've had a grand total of 2 malfunctions, a squib load that failed to cycle the action, and a stovepipe that my son had shooting from a sandbag. That's pretty reliable. I also have a model 41 that I've never had an alibi with while using CCI brand ammo.
I'd recomend either one of these pistols, but I'd buy one new. I have this theory about used automatics being used for a reason.
Steve.
I'd recomend either one of these pistols, but I'd buy one new. I have this theory about used automatics being used for a reason.
Steve.
Pistol problem or Grip nut problem?
Just wondering which came first, the shooter or the pistol? Since my early days of competition, I have noticed the better shooters rarely have a malfunction. For sure they do occur but generally with less frequency.
Back in those days, the arguement was between S&W 41 versus High Standard (still made in Hamden). I had a fair number of malfunctions. But as my scores improved, I had fewer.
One fellow had a problem with "key holing" and malfunctions. He kept getting these elongated holes in the target every ten rounds or so in timed and rapid fire type events. Had to be the gun, of course! No, one of the top shooters fired fifty rounds and not a single key hole and no malfunctions.
I found out how the name FAS was developed one match in Charlotte, NC a few years ago. The FAS owner, a very competent shooter was atempting to shoot the Standard pistol match but had malfunction after malfunction (but good groups when the pistol cycled!) He explained that FAS was short for Fussy As Shit.
How many malfunctions are caused by the "grip nut" (shooter) malfunctioning (jerking the wrist and doing other odd hand movements) versus the feed mechanism of the pistol?
Back in those days, the arguement was between S&W 41 versus High Standard (still made in Hamden). I had a fair number of malfunctions. But as my scores improved, I had fewer.
One fellow had a problem with "key holing" and malfunctions. He kept getting these elongated holes in the target every ten rounds or so in timed and rapid fire type events. Had to be the gun, of course! No, one of the top shooters fired fifty rounds and not a single key hole and no malfunctions.
I found out how the name FAS was developed one match in Charlotte, NC a few years ago. The FAS owner, a very competent shooter was atempting to shoot the Standard pistol match but had malfunction after malfunction (but good groups when the pistol cycled!) He explained that FAS was short for Fussy As Shit.
How many malfunctions are caused by the "grip nut" (shooter) malfunctioning (jerking the wrist and doing other odd hand movements) versus the feed mechanism of the pistol?
I think the reason top shooters have fewer alibis is that they are willing to put in the time to find a combination of pistol & ammo that works reliably. If a pistol combined with a brand of ammo isn't reliable, they switch.
Some pistol designs are amazing forgiving. The old High Standards (pre-Victor) with the open chamber area would shoot almost anything and cycle reliably. S&W Model 41's are much more fussy. This isn't just based on my personal experience with just a few pistols, but on the performance over decades with over 20 of each design used by the MIT pistol classes & team. The Model 41's also vary significantly from pistol to pistol, indicating a lot less margin for error. You can (if you are lucky) find ammo they will all shoot well, but you frequently find a few pistols that don't like certain lots. I have two High Standard Victors with the rib over the chamber area, and they both took some careful tuning to work well with a range of ammo. However, once working, they would shoot a wide range of ammo without any issues.
The newer European pistols CAN be very reliable, but most of the ones I'm familiar with (Benelli & Pardini mostly) are picky about ammo. My Benelli likes CCI, and my wife's Pardini doesn't. It does like Aguila, which my Benelli doesn't. I used to shoot Federal 711 a lot, but the newer 711B ammo has a different powder, and won't work reliably in either.
I would say that a small majority of the top shooters in the Greater Boston Pistol League are shooting Pardinis now. There is still quite a mix. I know there is at least one Unique and an old Browning Medalist that are going strong. You see Walther's occasionally, and only one or two Hammerlli's. The newer shooters are certainly gravitating towards the Pardini, the rest are old timers shooting whatever they have found that worked well at some point in the past. They shoot as wide a range of ammo brands as they do pistols.
If I had to buy a new pistol today, it would be a Pardini. I would also expect to have to try at least a few flavors of ammo before I found what worked best in it.
Bottom line: They are very few "reliable" pistols that will shoot any old ammo. However, finding a reliable combination shouldn't be that hard if you stick with the top brands. It then becomes a question of which pistol has the best ergonomic features to fit you. A reliable pistol won't shoot well for you if the grips, balance or sights don't suit you.
Some pistol designs are amazing forgiving. The old High Standards (pre-Victor) with the open chamber area would shoot almost anything and cycle reliably. S&W Model 41's are much more fussy. This isn't just based on my personal experience with just a few pistols, but on the performance over decades with over 20 of each design used by the MIT pistol classes & team. The Model 41's also vary significantly from pistol to pistol, indicating a lot less margin for error. You can (if you are lucky) find ammo they will all shoot well, but you frequently find a few pistols that don't like certain lots. I have two High Standard Victors with the rib over the chamber area, and they both took some careful tuning to work well with a range of ammo. However, once working, they would shoot a wide range of ammo without any issues.
The newer European pistols CAN be very reliable, but most of the ones I'm familiar with (Benelli & Pardini mostly) are picky about ammo. My Benelli likes CCI, and my wife's Pardini doesn't. It does like Aguila, which my Benelli doesn't. I used to shoot Federal 711 a lot, but the newer 711B ammo has a different powder, and won't work reliably in either.
I would say that a small majority of the top shooters in the Greater Boston Pistol League are shooting Pardinis now. There is still quite a mix. I know there is at least one Unique and an old Browning Medalist that are going strong. You see Walther's occasionally, and only one or two Hammerlli's. The newer shooters are certainly gravitating towards the Pardini, the rest are old timers shooting whatever they have found that worked well at some point in the past. They shoot as wide a range of ammo brands as they do pistols.
If I had to buy a new pistol today, it would be a Pardini. I would also expect to have to try at least a few flavors of ammo before I found what worked best in it.
Bottom line: They are very few "reliable" pistols that will shoot any old ammo. However, finding a reliable combination shouldn't be that hard if you stick with the top brands. It then becomes a question of which pistol has the best ergonomic features to fit you. A reliable pistol won't shoot well for you if the grips, balance or sights don't suit you.
For what it's worth... My MCM Margolin was very reliable when I was using it and my GSP as been working great using cheap winchester T22.
Oddly enough, the only hickups I've had with the GSP was right after cleaning it. After 20-50rds, everything seems to be back to normal. The only regular maintenance I do is wipe the bolt face, feed ramp and oil the slide... I take apart every 3000rds or so.
Safe shooting,
Mike.
Oddly enough, the only hickups I've had with the GSP was right after cleaning it. After 20-50rds, everything seems to be back to normal. The only regular maintenance I do is wipe the bolt face, feed ramp and oil the slide... I take apart every 3000rds or so.
Safe shooting,
Mike.
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Guest
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Pistol problem or Grip nut problem?
It would be interesting to know what ammunition he was using.PETE S wrote:The FAS owner, a very competent shooter was atempting to shoot the Standard pistol match but had malfunction after malfunction (but good groups when the pistol cycled!)
Having put several hundred thousand rounds of Eley Pistol Match through my 602, admitedly with regular servicing, I was completely happy with the reliability. I am sure that there were some malfunctions somewhere but I have just gone through my match records for 2 years, 43 full Standard Pistol matches, and there is no malfunction showing.
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888
A reliable FAS? Unbelievable.
So YOU got the one and only reliable FAS on the surface ot this planet!
The FAS is usually known for its LACK of reliability.
Or the other way around: It´s unreliability is reliable! :-)
The FAS is usually known for its LACK of reliability.
Or the other way around: It´s unreliability is reliable! :-)
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Great Boston Pistol League
I am happy to learn that the GBPL is still going. I am looking a small trophy on my desk - my first. The plaque reads 'Great Boston Pistol League 1956-57 CLASS B 2nd Team'Gwhite wrote: I would say that a small majority of the top shooters in the Greater Boston Pistol League are shooting Pardinis now.
Fred