Trigger setting 10m AP

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:40 am

Apologies if this has been asked before, no doubt many times.

We are told that it is important to have a "surprise break" on the trigger. The logic is that we avoid involuntary corrections, flinches or other movements. What though, is the best way to have the trigger set up?
Is it:-
Breaking glass single stage, short single stage, long single stage.
Two stage with breaking glass second, short second or long second.
Or, any other variation of the possibilities. Obviously whatever setting we choose has to hold the 500grams.
For an experienced shooter, no doubt a good degree of personal preference comes into it, but for a beginner/club level intermediate, what is the best starting point option please?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:00 am

Well my preference is roughly 50:50 split between first and second, perhaps 60:40. I would advise the beginner to leave the trigger well alone to start with. Check it's legal obviously but nothing else. Once they are used to the gun then they can try different settings. Remember though that each time you fiddle with it you will need to re-learn the shot release to get it subconscious again.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:08 am

RobStubbs wrote:I would advise the beginner to leave the trigger well alone to start with. Check it's legal obviously but nothing else.

Very good advice. One point to note when checking the overall weight, it is unlikely that a trigger weight of 550g will feel any different to you than one of 500g. Give yourself a bit of leeway and use the higher weight. You then won't have any concerns about going through a trigger weight check.

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:18 am

Hi Rob & David; I am used to the gun and have been experimenting with lots of variables, sights, weights etc. To me at least, I can judge if these are better/worse, but with the trigger, each variation seems to have pros & cons.
With your 50/50 or 60/40, when do you personally start to take up the first stage? Is it as you are dropping to the target or as you start your hold?

Nano · Post by **Nano** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:52 am

For me, there are some other variables, personally I prefer a trigger that has a first short stage of 360gr (called trigger slack) and a second stage of 160gr (trigger stop), adding 520 grams, to not have the conflict of weighing the trigger before the competition and being worried to shoot different from the training.
For me, the route of the first stage I prefer short and the second stage almost nonexistent .
I fit the first time with the finger at the time of lowering the weapon to the fire position.
In my oppinion, the pistols comes trigger setting from factory enough good, only is necessary to reduce the route of both stages and to accommodate the shoe of the trigger to the length of the finger.

¿somebody uses the shoe of the trigger slightly of side? I do.

Nano

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:22 am

derekm wrote:With your 50/50 or 60/40, when do you personally start to take up the first stage? Is it as you are dropping to the target or as you start your hold?

This is all such a matter of personal preference that all anyone can do is tell you what they do, which is what you asked.

My trigger is set up with 500g on the first stage and 40g on the second (both give-or-take a few grammes). I start to take up the first stage as I am lowering through the black, getting to the second stage as I settle into the aiming area. If things are going well (which is all too rare nowadays) the trigger will break a short time afterwards.

Nano · Post by **Nano** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:59 am

David:

If the shooter pull the first trigger stage when the pistol is down, the travel of the first stage is not much important, I want to ask how do you like the travel of the second trigger stage? very short? for me, inexistent is better.

Nano

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:49 pm

derekm wrote:Hi Rob & David; I am used to the gun and have been experimenting with lots of variables, sights, weights etc. To me at least, I can judge if these are better/worse, but with the trigger, each variation seems to have pros & cons.
With your 50/50 or 60/40, when do you personally start to take up the first stage? Is it as you are dropping to the target or as you start your hold?

I personally start taking up the first stage just as I come through the black and if it goes well I sort of just keep increasing. Some people prefer earlier but that doesn't seem as smooth to me.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:33 pm

Nano wrote:If the shooter pull the first trigger stage when the pistol is down, the travel of the first stage is not much important, I want to ask how do you like the travel of the second trigger stage? very short? for me, inexistent is better.

No perceivable movement at all. I am shooting a 162EI so am not certain if it is possible to have any second stage movement. I have never tried as it would not suit the way I have always shot, hit a wall on the trigger just before it breaks. Now if only it was possible to adjust the 162EI to feel the same as a well adjusted FAS 602, 603 or 607 (with the "dip" at the end of the first stage), that would be my ideal trigger.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:55 pm

David Levene wrote: Now if only it was possible to adjust the 162EI to feel the same as a well adjusted FAS 602, 603 or 607 (with the "dip" at the end of the first stage), that would be my ideal trigger.

David,

Would you please explain this "dip" on the FAS, why it's a good thing, and how one adjusts the settings for it?

Thanks,
FredB

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:30 pm

Fred wrote:Would you please explain this "dip" on the FAS, why it's a good thing, and how one adjusts the settings for it?

I'll see if I can explain it, but if you've ever felt it you will know what I am talking about.

Imagine you are pushing a heavy ball up a hill, that's the first stage. Near the top of the hill is a low wall that you have to push the ball over, that's the second stage. Just in front of the wall is a shallow dip that the ball rolls into. If you let the ball go then it will roll back down the hill but the effort to hold the ball in the dip, where any further movement uphill will take you over the wall (releasing the trigger), is a fraction of the effort it took to get it there. I hope that explains the "FAS dip".

Adjusting the trigger to achieve this is done by the small socket grub screw at the top back of the hammer box. Assuming that you can feel a second stage then turn the screw clockwise a quarter turn at a time until the second stage disappears and you just pull through the first stage to drop the hammer. Re-cock the hammer and back the screw out 1/8 turn at a time until the second stage comes back. Now screw it back in 1/16 turn at a time until it disappears, and out 1/32 turn at a time until it comes back.

You keep doing this, reducing the amount of movement on the screw each time, until the movement is gauged by feeling the screw move when you are holding on to the end of the Allen key (sometimes known as "cracking" the screw). When you can get the second stage back by just "cracking" the screw anti-clockwise you should be able to feel "the dip". You may find the second stage is now too light for you, in which case a further "crack" anti-clockwise should give you a slightly heavier second stage.

It takes a lot longer to describe than it does to actually do.

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:54 am

This is getting interesting; please keep your ideas/opinions coming guys. They are all valuable to me, especially with the detailed descriptions and I would assume they are helpful to others as well.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:51 am

David Levene wrote: I'll see if I can explain it, but if you've ever felt it you will know what I am talking about.

Imagine you are pushing a heavy ball up a hill, that's the first stage. Near the top of the hill is a low wall that you have to push the ball over, that's the second stage. Just in front of the wall is a shallow dip that the ball rolls into. If you let the ball go then it will roll back down the hill but the effort to hold the ball in the dip, where any further movement uphill will take you over the wall (releasing the trigger), is a fraction of the effort it took to get it there. I hope that explains the "FAS dip".

Hi David,

Thanks for the thorough description! However, from what you describe, I don't understand why this would be a desirable thing. Wouldn't it be preferable to have the pressure curve increase steadily, rather than have a dip in it? The dip you describe sounds like something similar to the "stacking" felt when pulling a poor quality double action revolver trigger, which leads to a jerky release. Or maybe I just didn't understand what you wrote?

Thanks,
FredB

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:20 pm

Hi Fred
I was thinking on the same lines as yourself ie. a single stage of whatever length and a steady, evenly increasing pull. I find that the second stage of a two stage, to me at least, is like commencing another pull and tends to upset my hold. I posted to see if there was any concensus of a "best" way, but it seems to be a very personal thing.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:21 pm

Fred wrote:Thanks for the thorough description! However, from what you describe, I don't understand why this would be a desirable thing. Wouldn't it be preferable to have the pressure curve increase steadily, rather than have a dip in it?

I suppose one of the greatest advantages of the dip is that it gives a clear indication that you just have the second stage to go, with the knock on effect that you can safely have a MUCH lighter second stage

In my primary disciplines of Standard and Centre Fire pistol it made it much easier to take up the first stage at the ready position and just stand there waiting for the targets with only a small percentage of the total trigger weight needing to be applied to fire the shot.

It is actually quite a difficult feeling to describe, it may actually just be a confidence thing that you know exactly where you are. I would certainly recommend anyone to try a properly adjusted FAS cartridge trigger if they can, if only to experience a trigger that feels like no other gun I have ever tried.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:25 pm

derekm wrote:I find that the second stage of a two stage, to me at least, is like commencing another pull and tends to upset my hold.

Just as a point of interest, has your trigger position been checked to ensure it is correct at the start of the second stage. The first stage is actually irrelevant when it comes to your hold, it's the second stage that counts.

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:34 pm

Sorry David, but what exactly do you mean when you talk of trigger position at the start of second stage?

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:50 pm

derekm wrote:Sorry David, but what exactly do you mean when you talk of trigger position at the start of second stage?

Is the trigger in the correct position so that at the end of the first stage your finger is at 90 degrees to the line of the barrel.

derekm · Post by **derekm** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:57 pm

Thanks for the clarification David. Yes, the end pad of my finger is at 90 deg. to the barrel at the end of the first stage, but the "sudden" increase in muscle tension at the start of the second stage (for want of a better description) seems to upset my hold.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:32 pm

derekm wrote:...but the "sudden" increase in muscle tension at the start of the second stage (for want of a better description) seems to upset my hold.

It shouldn't, but it could be so many things. Trigger position, woodwork, the way you hold the gun, between the ears, etc could all be causing it.

I know it is sometimes easier said than done but you really need to consult a coach, or at the very least a sensible experienced shooter, who can watch what you are doing.

It is probably something really basic, but without watching you I wouldn't like to say what I'm afraid