Range measurement 10M

[Torn Fibre]

I apologise up front and have openly said I am a complete beginner to this amazing sport, having recently acquired my very first ssp IZH 46M, so my question(s) may seem obvious to the initiated and no doubt asked many times before.

I have noticed from photographs, as I have never witnessed a live 10M competition that it would appear that in 10M AP the shooter stands behind a bench or table.

At what point is the 10M measurement defined from the target site, for example is it from the side of the bench the shooter is up against or the other side or does the shooter place his/ her leading foot on a demarcated line?

I used to think it was taken from the muzzle if one wanted to be really precise.

I have attempted a search but to no avail.

Your comments would be appreciated


Cheers Torn Fibre

[RobStubbs]

The 10M is from the target to the line at which the shooter stands. The shooters feet must be behind the line.

Full details are on the ISSF website http://www.issf-shooting.org/

Rob.

[Mike Taylor]

Note, also, that the bench is to be forward of the firing line (that is, on the target side of the line, not on the shooter's side) by 10 cm. (Rule 6.3.15.2.1)
I must say I find this location of the bench to be quite awkward. I'm somewhat less than 6 feet tall, but still I must lean forward, placing a large percentage of my weight on my forward foot when resting my pistol on the bench, when loading my pistol, and when changing paper targets (carrier system). Since these latter activities represent most of the time spent "on the line", it becomes very uncomfortable in a relatively short time (15 minutes or so), with distracting pain developing in my forward leg and in my back. I'd really like the height of the bench to be at least one metre, but I suppose shorter competitors might find this to be awkward.

[RobStubbs]

I'd really like the height of the bench to be at least one metre, but I suppose shorter competitors might find this to be awkward.

A lot of shooters shoot off their gun box and at some venues even I do and I could never be described as a tall shooter ;-)

Rob.

[Mike Taylor]

Hmm, hadn't thought of that, Rob. Don't recall having seen it at any matches I've been to but I'll give it a try at the next one. Thanks.

[JulianY]

A couple of other things to note;


1) ISSF Article 6.3.9 dictated the hight of the center of the target should be 1.4m +- 0.05m

2) ISSF Article 6.3.15.4.3 Indicates the tbe table should between 0.7m and 0.8 m high and it should also stop 10cm before the fireing line.

You can find all the rules at [URL]http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/engl ... es.asp[URL]

The target height can be dificult to measure if ground level at the target end is diferent to the shooting position. To solve this problem I used a builder's spirit level with a lazer in the end set up at the correct hight at the shooting position to mark the coresponding point on the taget end

best of luck

Julian

[Torn Fibre]

Thank you chaps for making my day that much easier and pointing me in the right direction.

The target height was my next question but thankfully answered, so it is all coming together little by little, with your kind help and some bedtime reading.

Must now study www.issf-shooting.org/rules/english/rules.asp

Cheers and happy shooting
Torn Fibre

[David Levene]

Just to repeat the advice I gave you on another thread, if there is any way you can get help at a local club, especially from someone like Jim Mallows at Cambridge 177, then do so.

Things will become much easier face-to-face. And don't worry about asking them what sound like stupid questions, we've all been there.

[Torn Fibre]

Hi David L

I have taken your earlier useful advice re The Elizabeth Way Ranges in Cambridge and Rob S is intending to visit later in November and kindly invited me along. I haven't yet given him a firm answer but duly considering his offer. As you rightly say face to face will be more profitable.

I actually have a shooting buddy and also a member of an outdoor club where we shoot AR and AP and it is thanks to him that I was pointed in the direction of pistol shooting, which I would never have considered in a month of Sundays but now gratefully hooked.

We both have a Cometa Indian spring powered air pistol, he has a Rohm Twinmaster Sport and I have the Izzy. My air rifles are the HW80 and HW97K in .22 and this is my first use of the .177 calibre, which I originally found far too small to handle.

I also think that sometimes these posts may attract or be of interest to other members or guests, who are perhaps curious to know certain aspects of this great sport but in practice conduct 10M AP informally, as I am initially endeavouring to do, combined with a degree of plinking.

I must also say that after spending an hour or two with Izzy on the range it is quite refreshing to put her away in her cardboard box. Sit down and massage and flex my right hand back to life. Have a nice hot drink, gobble up a sandwich or two and do some BR shooting with my non-FAC 97K air rifle out to 55 yards or more on a good day.

Many thanks and cheers
Torn Fibre

[JulianY]

flex my right hand back to life

I am not sure how much to read into this expression but taking it literaly just in case; Your Grip on you pistol should be gentle ( its not a 357 magnum ) A more gentle grip will help your trigger action become smooth.

Idealy you should also be removing your hand from the grip and re-presenting the gun to you shooting hand if not after every shot after more no more than 5.

It is esentual to keep the blood flowing.

Sorry it I am teaching you to suck eggs but i thought I better speake rather than not.

Best Wishes

J

[Nicole Hamilton]

Idealy you should also be removing your hand from the grip and re-presenting the gun to you shooting hand if not after every shot after more no more than 5.

It is esentual to keep the blood flowing.

This is the first time I've seen this suggestion (though of course, that may only be fresh evidence of my eternal naivety. :) Is this something many shooters find helpful? Pretty clearly, any time you do regrip the gun, you need to check NPA again, but assuming you do that, it seems possible this might indeed be a useful strategy.

[Torn Fibre]

As you probably know by now I am a newcomer and as such full of zeal and naturally attempting to amass as much know-how as is possible in as short a time as time as possible.

Result is in my case is that one is so determined to excel one tends to spend far too long at the range, become tired, suffer information overload, forget the fundamentals, lose focus and so on ending up stressed and invariably dissatisfied with your failing performance. This is no way to have fun and progress and reinforces the negative elements.

The Izzy comes with a tree stump for a grip and she is quite heavy for the untrained and weak in stamina. I have not yet removed any wood apart from a light sanding to smooth out rough spots, as I wanted to see if the grip wouldn’t need working on.

I do realise now that I have been holding the grip far too tightly and for too long getting through most recently what must have been half a tin of pellets. I have been cocking her virtually non-stop throughout this without taking a proper break. Also I realise I have been aiming for far too long before releasing the shot making matters worse.

All this has resulted in eyestrain, backaches and pains in my right hand, forearm and shoulder.

So my very unproductive approach needs to be revamped radically and I need to focus on training smarter on one variable at a time and not go at it like a bull at a gate. Rome wasn’t built in a day and Arnold Schwarzenegger didn’t become Mr Olympia overnight did he?

There is hope yet in this old dog thanks to the plethora of info out there and of course you kind incredibly helpful people.

Thanks for the useful tips JulianY and what is NPA Nicole H … guessing it might be natural point of aim?

Cheers and feeling much better now I’ve left Izzy in her box all day whilst I've reflected on my folly and better ways to learn and train.
Torn Fibre

[Nicole Hamilton]

...and what is NPA Nicole H … guessing it might be natural point of aim?

Yup, you got it. Are you comfortable you know how to check it? (Close your eyes, bring your gun up, then open your eyes and look to see where the gun's pointed. If it's to the left or right of the bull, move your feet slightly, then try again.)

[RobStubbs]

This is the first time I've seen this suggestion (though of course, that may only be fresh evidence of my eternal naivety. :) Is this something many shooters find helpful? Pretty clearly, any time you do regrip the gun, you need to check NPA again, but assuming you do that, it seems possible this might indeed be a useful strategy.

There is no need to recheck the NPA, it won't change if you hold the gun in the same way. I ungrip every single shot always and it's very easy to grip the gun the same way every time. I would go so far as to say it is vital to be able to grip the gun identically and taking up the grip each shot trains that. Every now and again I grip it oddly and it feels wrong so I simply start again.

Rob.

[ChrisL]

Idealy you should also be removing your hand from the grip and re-presenting the gun to you shooting hand if not after every shot after more no more than 5.

It is esentual to keep the blood flowing.

This is the first time I've seen this suggestion (though of course, that may only be fresh evidence of my eternal naivety. :) Is this something many shooters find helpful? Pretty clearly, any time you do regrip the gun, you need to check NPA again, but assuming you do that, it seems possible this might indeed be a useful strategy.

Reading the 5-shot re-grip suggestion, I had difficulties retrieving my eyebrows from the ceiling - I think Nicole put it more politely than me, but then again I'm just a primary person I guess. +1 for originality, though.

In my club, once we are happy with the feet position and the grip, we don't change it. That is: feet glued to the floor (unless you do want to adjust your position), and do not change your grip. If you want to get frowned upon, try to shake hands with a busy right handed AP shooter when you enter the range.

May I suggest to attack your grip with file, rasp, epoxy and silicon carbide grit so as to have a comfortable grip&have no pressure points left? Also do not exaggerate with the palm support; all this should improve your circulation problems and so on.

I have removed up to 5-8 mm of material around the R/H grip screws, the Izzy is supplied with generous amounts of excess grip. I don't even mean this cynically - once you realize you have to work the grip it's actually quite convenient.

I did all this to my Izzy and I can now grip it for hours; there is no more need to squeeze the grip to death either, as it is a perfect fit for my hand, and the silicon carbide grit makes sure it doesn't go anywhere, even when I relax the presure a bit, even with damp paws.

Cheers,
Chris.

[RobStubbs]

In my club, once we are happy with the feet position and the grip, we don't change it. That is: feet glued to the floor (unless you do want to adjust your position), and do not change your grip. If you want to get frowned upon, try to shake hands with a busy right handed AP shooter when you enter the range.

That may be the case, but it is not considered sensible advice. If you search through previous threads you will see that your NPA will change during the course of a match. Your hand also sweats etc. You may think your hand is in the same place all the time but it won't be after you've lowered it down, re-loaded etc.

Have a look at any competition on the ISSF website and you will see most (all?) shooters will re grip after every shot. Shooters will also have a number of breaks, sit down, walk around etc.

Rob.

[JulianY]

The reason for thr 5 shot recomendation is for those of us in europe still permitted to have .22s, some clubs regard re-grippin a loaded semiautomatic mid string as a safty issue and do no permit it. The pistol mus first be unloaded and made safe befor re-gripping. remember the thing is cocked mid string.

Julian

[RobStubbs]

The reason for thr 5 shot recomendation is for those of us in europe still permitted to have .22s, some clubs regard re-grippin a loaded semiautomatic mid string as a safty issue and do no permit it. The pistol mus first be unloaded and made safe befor re-gripping. remember the thing is cocked mid string.

Julian

I can see that but as long as the weapon is not put down then I would have thought it was safe to re-take the grip (exactly as you do at the start of shooting). That said with a 5-shot there should be no need to re grip as you are not moving the gun about in the hand - not in the same way as you are when loading a single shot pistol.

Rob.

[Nicole Hamilton]

... your NPA will change during the course of a match. Your hand also sweats etc. You may think your hand is in the same place all the time but it won't be after you've lowered it down, re-loaded etc.

Have a look at any competition on the ISSF website and you will see most (all?) shooters will re grip after every shot. Shooters will also have a number of breaks, sit down, walk around etc.

I do agree that it's useful to recheck NPA periodically. And in both FP and AP, where you have long slow fire sequences, I also find it helps to take breaks, walk around, etc.

But I haven't noticed shooters deliberately regripping in quite the manner originally described, "removing your hand from the grip and re-presenting the gun" after each shot. What I have seen is some shooters flexing their fingers slightly as if to stretch them, keeping their palms in the same spot against the grip, apparently so as to avoid actually regripping. Perhaps I just need to watch more closely.

[RobStubbs]

I do agree that it's useful to recheck NPA periodically. And in both FP and AP, where you have long slow fire sequences, I also find it helps to take breaks, walk around, etc.

But I haven't noticed shooters deliberately regripping in quite the manner originally described, "removing your hand from the grip and re-presenting the gun" after each shot. What I have seen is some shooters flexing their fingers slightly as if to stretch them, keeping their palms in the same spot against the grip, apparently so as to avoid actually regripping. Perhaps I just need to watch more closely.

I know that is the advise of our national coach which could be why so many shooters I see shooting, take up the grip every shot. You have however got me intrigued so I will have to go and download some international AP matches off the ISSF website and do some homework - when I get back from shooting myself ;-).

Rob.