Hello - is anybody here, how knows that newer mg2's have no problems with the BIL (Part 2060)?
And what ist with this Rubber thing? is it true, that the guns with s/n 1600 upward have no more problems???
...sorry for my "bad" english...
thanks for requests[/b]
New Matchguns MG2
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There's a brand new upgrade kit (3 weeks old) that seems to solve most of the problems. Even "monday-pistols" are said to work nicely after its installation. OTH, I' haven't had any problems with #103*, so it can't be a fundamental design problem anyway. In Switzerland, best ask Viktor Odermatt (044 760 00 30), he knows what's up.
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
So far my 'new' MG-2 is working well - no problems with the bullet insert lever. Of course I also had very few problems with the BIL in my 'old' MG-2...
The rubber buffer doesn't appear to have any affect on how the pistol shoots in my hand. I think it's in place more to protect the slide and frame from cracking through work hardening of the metal.
Please do a search on this site for a posting by Mike T. on an earlier MG-2 thread - he has described very accurately what goes wrong with the BIL. In short, if you get a jam with the cartridge standing up vertically in front of the chamber, DO NOT CYCLE THE SLIDE.
One other thing I'll point out to you... The only time I have jams is when the gun is clean. My advice to you is to clean the pistol then shoot the gun at least 50 shots (prefer 100) before taking it to a match. When I've done this I've had absolutely no problems with either my old or new MG-2.
The rubber buffer doesn't appear to have any affect on how the pistol shoots in my hand. I think it's in place more to protect the slide and frame from cracking through work hardening of the metal.
Please do a search on this site for a posting by Mike T. on an earlier MG-2 thread - he has described very accurately what goes wrong with the BIL. In short, if you get a jam with the cartridge standing up vertically in front of the chamber, DO NOT CYCLE THE SLIDE.
One other thing I'll point out to you... The only time I have jams is when the gun is clean. My advice to you is to clean the pistol then shoot the gun at least 50 shots (prefer 100) before taking it to a match. When I've done this I've had absolutely no problems with either my old or new MG-2.
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MG2 OWNER
UPGRADE KIT
Hi Tycho
I did ask Machguns about the rumors on their upgrade kit and what parts was doe to be changed. They replied "this rumor is completely new for us. In the contrary the complaints regarding the MG2 are now almost zero."
So please enlighten us.
I did ask Machguns about the rumors on their upgrade kit and what parts was doe to be changed. They replied "this rumor is completely new for us. In the contrary the complaints regarding the MG2 are now almost zero."
So please enlighten us.
The following stats are from the Swiss market - the pistol may function better in other parts of the world, so beware. But here, only about 50% of the early series MG2 work without any major problems. The new upgrade kit is definitely reality. I heard the same story from two gunsmiths with a long history of Cesare (can't call him Morini, or Francesco will start yelling again), independently. As of last week, only 6 upgrades have found their way north of the alps. 13 were ordered, but in Cesare's calculation, 7 of those were for guns that are older than 12 months - out of warranty... He was quite astonished to find that dealers wanted to service the older pistols, too. So much for that. I would never ask Matchguns anything (except perhaps on the phone), they won't tell you the truth anyway (but their promises sure sound better on the phone). We are pretty sure that he changed even more than the parts in the kit, but those can't be updated, as they regard the frame and probably the barrel. Doesn't matter, as long as the monday pistols can be made to function. Personally, I can't complain about my MG2, but I sure was lucky. I wouldn't buy anything from Cesare if I had to rely on it, but he is the best designer around, so... And if he gets more than 75% of his production running right out of the box, I'll eat my hat. His savvy about serial production fits on a pretty small piece of paper. Of his masterpiece, the CM102E, there are at least 5 known versions - in less than 700 pistols.
In truth, I'm tired of all the complaints about him and the MG2. It's general knowledge that he never got anything running right away. He's probably the only designer with a worse beta version record than Microsoft. So IMHO, everybody who decides to buy a Cesare pistol does so AT HIS OWN RISK. Stop complaining. Stop asking other people - they are either fatalistic or already angry. Learn some mechanics. Keep spare parts. Keep it clean. Don't play around with the trigger. Don't try out extreme grip angles. Hope. Pray. Animal sacrifices may help, too. And keep a backup gun around.
In truth, I'm tired of all the complaints about him and the MG2. It's general knowledge that he never got anything running right away. He's probably the only designer with a worse beta version record than Microsoft. So IMHO, everybody who decides to buy a Cesare pistol does so AT HIS OWN RISK. Stop complaining. Stop asking other people - they are either fatalistic or already angry. Learn some mechanics. Keep spare parts. Keep it clean. Don't play around with the trigger. Don't try out extreme grip angles. Hope. Pray. Animal sacrifices may help, too. And keep a backup gun around.
its funny to read the entries - at first thanks for tycho the information - i call him - odermatt - and he tell me, that he has only now a few part from cesare. (its not a kit aviable - he like to see at first the mg2 befor he changing some parts at the gun) then we talk about the mg2 - he cant say to me that now the troubled mg2's now working better after changing some parts - he says only to me, he fixed at the time two guns... tycho is it possible to meet you for a mg2 testing? maybe i can shoot with your gun - have you free time? from which part of switzerland are you? please send me a privat mail...
Right. I've been to Milano (Italian nationals there) today and talked to Cesare, live. About the MG2, among other things. All the kits for Switzerland are on their way, he gave us the remaining ones to deliver. I have my one in front of me. It contains the hammer, hammer spring, extractor, ejector, the long lever of the trigger mechanism that connects the upper and lower part and a small spring I don't know about yet. There are only 13 MG2's in Switzerland, so a quota of 2/2 newly running out of six pistols known not to function seems pretty good to me. Viktor is not really happy because he doesn't understand exactly what's been changed, but the most important part is that the changes work - and Cesare swears they do. You like the design, buy one. You don't, don't. You don't have a backup pistol, don't. You don't like tools or dirty fingers, don't. You need something to complain about, buy it. BEWARE: This is not a 208. It won't function without maintenance. It will need parts from time to time. It will need adjustment. You will have to gain some know-how. There won't be many other savvy people around. You will feel like an idiot every time you lift your left arm during the series.You will feel great every time a perfect shot happens and everybody's chin drops because your pistol doesn't move...
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Tycho - I think you've accurately summed up the MG-2. It's an imperfect device. When you get one that works, it works so very well as to make others stare in awe. When it doesn't work... well, yes, you'd better have a backup. It's definitely not a 208, but anybody who's purchased a Hammerli pistol lately will realize that 208-level quality is no longer produced by any manufacturer, especially Hammerli. Even Feinwerkbau, with the most expensive standard pistol on the market, couldn't get it right. The AW-93 that I used to own is still jamming from time to time, on average about once every 50 shots. Nothing's perfect. Some of us are lucky and have MG-2's that work, and we're very happy people indeed!
Well, the quota seems on the rise, so stay optimistic. And how should he keep that small company running if nobody does the beta testing for him? We want new things to happen, we have to help the inventors. And I forgot - the new MG2E even offers some added value - great dry firing with the electronic trigger, even if you get one that doesnt work :-)
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MG-owner
Electronics does not always work..
No. My electronic unit does ot work. Yes, well, sort oF. If I turn it on and off a couple of times, it might give you an click.
It worked well for only about 20 live rounds....
It worked well for only about 20 live rounds....
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(former) MG2-sceptical
...it works now...
Hi.
I am the owner of the famous ill-faithed MG2 pistol of these coloumns. The "wallhanger", the MG2 that faced its final verdict, the sledgehammer punishment.
My MG2 was returned from the importer lately. Yesterday I had an opportunity to tesfire. It digested CCI standard, and Eley Pistol ammo without a hitch...during a chill automn evening of 10 degrees C.
Promising. Exactly which changes had been performed by the importer?
1. Extractor was replaced.
2. Ejector (blade) was replaced with one of a slightly different (newer) configuration, I was told (a must for the new cradle version?).
3. The frame (mine is serialnr. 14xx) was milled with a microlathe to accept the post serialnumber 1600 rubber buffer feature. About 5 mm of the frame was milled off to accept the now current rubber buffer.
A broken BIL (the 2nd) was installed by me at an earlier stage. Likewice, I had earlier installed a "cradle" of the new configuration (which resulted in markedly increased resistance when cycling the bolt). Probably the new ejector blade had cured this problem.
In the importers opinion, the extractor was the culprit. I experienced a much more posive ejection of spent cases from the gun now. And I think I could feel a softer (end of) recoil stroke when firing the slightly warmer CCI fodder.
But that enoying bulge of the case from brass flow into the extractor cut at firing is still there. No cases ruptured yesterday, but the size of the bulge is alarming...
The total cost of the upgrade? The importer charged me about 7 euros, about 8 US dollars. A spare rubber buffer was included in that figure.
I will test the gun further, and keep you posted, guys.
I am the owner of the famous ill-faithed MG2 pistol of these coloumns. The "wallhanger", the MG2 that faced its final verdict, the sledgehammer punishment.
My MG2 was returned from the importer lately. Yesterday I had an opportunity to tesfire. It digested CCI standard, and Eley Pistol ammo without a hitch...during a chill automn evening of 10 degrees C.
Promising. Exactly which changes had been performed by the importer?
1. Extractor was replaced.
2. Ejector (blade) was replaced with one of a slightly different (newer) configuration, I was told (a must for the new cradle version?).
3. The frame (mine is serialnr. 14xx) was milled with a microlathe to accept the post serialnumber 1600 rubber buffer feature. About 5 mm of the frame was milled off to accept the now current rubber buffer.
A broken BIL (the 2nd) was installed by me at an earlier stage. Likewice, I had earlier installed a "cradle" of the new configuration (which resulted in markedly increased resistance when cycling the bolt). Probably the new ejector blade had cured this problem.
In the importers opinion, the extractor was the culprit. I experienced a much more posive ejection of spent cases from the gun now. And I think I could feel a softer (end of) recoil stroke when firing the slightly warmer CCI fodder.
But that enoying bulge of the case from brass flow into the extractor cut at firing is still there. No cases ruptured yesterday, but the size of the bulge is alarming...
The total cost of the upgrade? The importer charged me about 7 euros, about 8 US dollars. A spare rubber buffer was included in that figure.
I will test the gun further, and keep you posted, guys.
Okay, let me commit common sense here:
If there are several other pistols which are just as accurate, but have none of the reliability issues of the MG2, why would you pay something that doesn't work right?
Is there something so unique about this gun that, when it works, that makes it so superior to others? If so, perhaps someone can enlighten me. If not, other than a penchant for self-abuse, why buy one?
Dave
If there are several other pistols which are just as accurate, but have none of the reliability issues of the MG2, why would you pay something that doesn't work right?
Is there something so unique about this gun that, when it works, that makes it so superior to others? If so, perhaps someone can enlighten me. If not, other than a penchant for self-abuse, why buy one?
Dave
a) It works, more or less. And, I've seen pistols of any brand with chronical malfunctions, - the disappointment there is far bigger. With "Cesare" on it, everybody is forewarned. With Pardini on it, everybody thinks himself on the safe side - and isn't, believe me.
b) Yes, the MG2 does represent a technical direction nobody else dared to go, except perhaps Walther (with less than impressive results). We all are looking for inventions, so we should support those who are actually inventing something, don't you think? (That's just for those hypocrites yammering about nothin'-new-to-buy and then going for something designed 25 years ago).
c) There are, believe it or not, people who don't like pistols with the mag in front of the trigger or very upright grip angles - precision isn't everything, shootability is. And the range of high end target pistols with (the option of) shallow grip angles, zero distance between hand and barrel axis and a balance point not halfway to Australia is VERY small. It is right now more or less ONE, except when you count the MG2 and the MG2E as two different pistols.
d) Forget common sense. Or are you doing this for money? Are you actually trying to win something? Why not have fun and enjoy the faces of the Hammerli fraction when they see the empty case you put on top of the MG2 standing there throughout the whole shot process?
e) Cesare is a nice guy.
b) Yes, the MG2 does represent a technical direction nobody else dared to go, except perhaps Walther (with less than impressive results). We all are looking for inventions, so we should support those who are actually inventing something, don't you think? (That's just for those hypocrites yammering about nothin'-new-to-buy and then going for something designed 25 years ago).
c) There are, believe it or not, people who don't like pistols with the mag in front of the trigger or very upright grip angles - precision isn't everything, shootability is. And the range of high end target pistols with (the option of) shallow grip angles, zero distance between hand and barrel axis and a balance point not halfway to Australia is VERY small. It is right now more or less ONE, except when you count the MG2 and the MG2E as two different pistols.
d) Forget common sense. Or are you doing this for money? Are you actually trying to win something? Why not have fun and enjoy the faces of the Hammerli fraction when they see the empty case you put on top of the MG2 standing there throughout the whole shot process?
e) Cesare is a nice guy.
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Geez Tycho, once again you've hit the nail on the head. I bought the MG-2 because it felt 'just right' in my hand. I bought it without ever having fired one.
And then I fired it... My world has never been the same since. I've fired just about all the other modern standard pistols and there is nothing else that comes close to the MG-2. The gun just doesn't move when you shoot it.
My Pardini bounces all over the place. My AW-93 was so slow to recover from the shot that I couldn't use it in the 4s series of rapidfire. I've held the SSP in my hand and thought, "YUCK!", so there's no sense in even trying to fire it. My IZH-35 was just too upright for me to be able to control very well. The GSP feels like a tank in my hand, and likewise is too upright. We've had so many troubles with the Hammerli SP20 in our area that I won't touch one of those either. And Hammerli factory support for their products is, well, just bloody awful.
So, why buy an MG-2? By the time you shoot a box of ammo through an MG-2 you'll know why. There's simply nothing else out there that shoots as well as an MG-2. (I only wish the company was paying me to say this... LoL)
And then I fired it... My world has never been the same since. I've fired just about all the other modern standard pistols and there is nothing else that comes close to the MG-2. The gun just doesn't move when you shoot it.
My Pardini bounces all over the place. My AW-93 was so slow to recover from the shot that I couldn't use it in the 4s series of rapidfire. I've held the SSP in my hand and thought, "YUCK!", so there's no sense in even trying to fire it. My IZH-35 was just too upright for me to be able to control very well. The GSP feels like a tank in my hand, and likewise is too upright. We've had so many troubles with the Hammerli SP20 in our area that I won't touch one of those either. And Hammerli factory support for their products is, well, just bloody awful.
So, why buy an MG-2? By the time you shoot a box of ammo through an MG-2 you'll know why. There's simply nothing else out there that shoots as well as an MG-2. (I only wish the company was paying me to say this... LoL)
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(former) MG2-sceptical
-- the spirit og the MG2...
Well, as long as my rebuildt MG2 performs ok, I can only add to Tycho and Mark: it is a enjoyable gun to fire. With the large rubbe buffer, recoil is softer than any unported .22 I have ever fired, - recovery is fast. Trigger pull is in my opinion very good, and easy to adjust. And the ingenious dry firing feature. No plastics inserts to fumble around with.
Yes, the MG2 is different. (When it is in a cooperative moode).
And I my country the cost of the MG2 is about 2/3 that of the new Walther.
Yes, the MG2 is different. (When it is in a cooperative moode).
And I my country the cost of the MG2 is about 2/3 that of the new Walther.
Oh, I agree the concept is fascinating and, when it is working right, I might really love one. I simply disagree that releasing a product that has so many bugs in it and using the buyer as your testing base is the right way for a company to proceed. And, who pays to upgrade the existing and non-working guns, or pays for using something else while you have a useless pistol waiting for the latest fix? I would at least hope that all of you testers out there are getting free updates and new parts without charge for your development work.
No. I think I will wait for the much improved version. And before you say if we don't buy the company won't survive to improve their product, who said we had support their development costs with our pocket? Charity begins at home, and supporting my family is more important than supporting Matchguns, nice guys or not.
Dave
No. I think I will wait for the much improved version. And before you say if we don't buy the company won't survive to improve their product, who said we had support their development costs with our pocket? Charity begins at home, and supporting my family is more important than supporting Matchguns, nice guys or not.
Dave
Right, but after the electronic Pardini fiasco, the ongoing development at CM's 22M (and their stopped 32M), Hammerli's trouble with cracking slides and housings, Walther's three year development time on the SSP that resulted in a pistol which isn't troublefree at all, just to mention a few highlights - what do you expect? This is formula 1, and if you want to be at the technological top, you have to take some risks. Matchguns is essentially a one person company - can you please enlighten us how he should generate the cash flow for three years without selling a pistol? In a market of some hundred guns per year, worldwide? Who should test it? With which procedures? For how long? BTW, until now the upgrades were free, and now the things seem to function pretty well. We all know that Cesare is a tinkerer, so if you wait for a definite version, forget it, that will never arrive and you'll miss your chance at one of the really innovative pistols of our times. And - you know what your beloved Pardini did to us RFP shooters? You remember the long years of fighting with Hammerli over every pistol from the 280 onwards, because they had problems? Besides, what OS are you running on your PC? Sent Bill a mail about your ideas of beta testing?
Actually, my firm was a beta test site for several computer companies and software products (I do some IP representation.) The computers and the software was free, which is how beta test works here in the US. Anyone who pays for the 'privilege' of being a beta tester is someone I would like to meet. I have some great investments I would like to talk you into taking, just send me a large check, make it payable to 'cash' and trust me, you will get taken care of quite well :-)
Of course, no mechanical device is ever perfect. Perhaps I have just been lucky since my Pardini's have been fairly reliable, including my GPE etc. with the dreaded electronic trigger. (Works on my CM84E too.) When I had issues, the late Don Nygord and now Larry at Larry's Guns in Maine was right there to help out, and apologize if it was an issue. Pilkington has a good parts supply and service here in the US for Feinwerkbau and Morini as well. Pardinin parts have been readily available and the company, when I spoke to them, seemed very interested in working with their customers.
Of course, I don't automatically assume that every pistol I buy is going to be a headache. Granted I am too old at 58 (nearly 59) to compete actively and too busy at work if I wasn't so elderly, but I still enjoy shooting against other old farts with the same interests and the same eclectic tastes in target weapons. By and large, troubles have been minor even on older guns.
I have several pre WWII Walthers in 22 LR and 22Short that are even older than me, and with the right cleaing and lube, they function flawlessly. A bit newer? My Hammerli P240s in 32 and 38 also chug along just fine, albeit they are not by any stretch of the imagination current competition weapons nor are my other Hammerlis in 22 LR and 22 Short, but just as reliable. Older guns, lots of rounds through them but still chugging along.
So while my state of the art experience may simply have been pure luck with my AW93, the Pardini and my CM22 (which for some reason continues to be trouble free) I guess you feel that pain should be part of the shooting process. I don't but that is simply my opinion, and not any more -- or less -- vaild than yours.
I understand that you want to support a one man shop and think that is marvelous, but let us not assert that all other guns are as troublesome or that parts and service are as difficult to obtain. (And yes, God knows what is going to happen now that Hammerli is part of Walther, and no, the SSP isn't my cup of tea.) However, it is rather ethnocentric to say that the level of reliability and continual upgrades and reworks is the norm even in this small niche of shooting. We agree to disagree
Et tu? Dave
Of course, no mechanical device is ever perfect. Perhaps I have just been lucky since my Pardini's have been fairly reliable, including my GPE etc. with the dreaded electronic trigger. (Works on my CM84E too.) When I had issues, the late Don Nygord and now Larry at Larry's Guns in Maine was right there to help out, and apologize if it was an issue. Pilkington has a good parts supply and service here in the US for Feinwerkbau and Morini as well. Pardinin parts have been readily available and the company, when I spoke to them, seemed very interested in working with their customers.
Of course, I don't automatically assume that every pistol I buy is going to be a headache. Granted I am too old at 58 (nearly 59) to compete actively and too busy at work if I wasn't so elderly, but I still enjoy shooting against other old farts with the same interests and the same eclectic tastes in target weapons. By and large, troubles have been minor even on older guns.
I have several pre WWII Walthers in 22 LR and 22Short that are even older than me, and with the right cleaing and lube, they function flawlessly. A bit newer? My Hammerli P240s in 32 and 38 also chug along just fine, albeit they are not by any stretch of the imagination current competition weapons nor are my other Hammerlis in 22 LR and 22 Short, but just as reliable. Older guns, lots of rounds through them but still chugging along.
So while my state of the art experience may simply have been pure luck with my AW93, the Pardini and my CM22 (which for some reason continues to be trouble free) I guess you feel that pain should be part of the shooting process. I don't but that is simply my opinion, and not any more -- or less -- vaild than yours.
I understand that you want to support a one man shop and think that is marvelous, but let us not assert that all other guns are as troublesome or that parts and service are as difficult to obtain. (And yes, God knows what is going to happen now that Hammerli is part of Walther, and no, the SSP isn't my cup of tea.) However, it is rather ethnocentric to say that the level of reliability and continual upgrades and reworks is the norm even in this small niche of shooting. We agree to disagree
Et tu? Dave
Yep, it's obviously a fundamental difference in philosophy. Of course, I may have a somewhat more tolerant attitude, as Switzerland is decidedly nearer to most manufacturers than the US, so complaining, discussing, upgrading and generally getting your hands on all kind of experimental stuff is far easier. Nonetheless, I'm maintaining my opinion that the times of 100% tested, 100% reliable pistols entering the market are over. FWB got part lucky, but for the most of it made the smart choice of buying a 20 year old proven design from the russians. All the others had their share of trouble with their late designs, although of course one may get lucky, like you with the GPE.